Episode 3

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Published on:

8th Mar 2025

Forever Wild, Episode 3: Burning down the house

In this episode of 'Forever Wild,' Megan and Nora McGovern, the oldest and youngest of the four McGovern sisters, share their tumultuous childhood journey.

The episode kicks off with their father leaving the family, prompting their mother to take them on a ten-year whirlwind adventure, starting in California and spanning across continents and states.

They reflect on the impacts of their chaotic early years on their adult lives, such as issues with trust and an appreciation for stability.

Transcript
Meagan McGovern:

Hi, welcome to Forever Wild, a podcast about family, memory, and

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the stories that shape who we've become.

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I'm Megan McGovern, the oldest

of the four McGovern sisters.

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Nora Gibbs: And I'm Nora Gibbs,

the youngest and the most

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charming of the McGovern girls.

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Together, we're sharing our journey

growing up with an active father, a mother

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who didn't think that the rules applied

to her, and a childhood full of chaos,

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adventure, and unforgettable moments.

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Meagan McGovern: Every episode, we're

going to dive into stories that make

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us reflect about what it means to

search for home, love, and family.

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Nora Gibbs: Thanks for joining us.

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This is Forever Wild.

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Meagan McGovern: Okay, so today

Nora and I decided that we were

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going to talk about the beginning

of our adventure with our mother.

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Essentially what happened is that

our mother, our parents were married

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and they seemed normal to us.

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And then my father left.

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And we went on a whirlwind

adventure for about 10 years,

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where we went all over the place.

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We started in California,

we went to Australia.

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It involves Europe and the

Bahamas and houses all across the

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United States from Connecticut

to South Carolina to Oregon back.

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Well, I

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Nora Gibbs: think, I think that, well,

I know that in the last two episodes,

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we talked a lot about our parents and

where they came from and how they got

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to where they ended up in California.

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And at this point where we pick up the

stories is when I'm five or six years old.

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And that's when.

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You were much, much older than I was.

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Oh,

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Meagan McGovern: I was 50 at that point.

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Nora Gibbs: think you're

10 or 11 at that point.

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I'm six

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Meagan McGovern: years older.

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Nora Gibbs: She's six

years older than I am.

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So you have a lot of memories

of these things that happened.

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And I have certain memories, core

memories, as my children like to say.

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And I think that it's important that we

talk about what we remember growing up.

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And all of this is what

made us who we are.

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So that's what we're

going to talk about today.

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What we remember and where our.

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Memories of the chaos started

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Meagan McGovern: and so to start this

story to set the setting, we grew up up

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until this point when I was about 10 years

old in the, in California, in the suburbs

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of California, outside Los Angeles, my

father worked in television and maybe

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we'll do a podcast one day about his

Acting and how he was on The Bionic Woman,

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and he hung out with Jack Nicholson, and

he hung out with Paul Newman and we knew

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all of the stories and all of the actors

names, and my mother said my father was

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going to be a movie star, and we left

all of that behind when my father left,

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and there was a lot of drama to it, but

my father ran off with my mother's best

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friend go figure, and my mother packed us

up and took us on the road to New York,

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and I think it was the first time she'd

been back to New York Really to live

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since she had left 10 or 12 years before.

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She wasn't sure if her family would take

her in or what, where she was going.

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She had no income and

hadn't worked in 15 years.

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So she was 40 with four small children

under 10 years old, four girls

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under 10 years old, and we were.

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You know, four, six, eight, and

ten, I think, at this point.

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Nora Gibbs: Yeah, that's what

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Meagan McGovern: Yeah, and I can't imagine

having four kids that were four, six,

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eight, and ten, and no husband, and no

income, and my father swore he wasn't

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going to pay child support, and having

my husband leave me for my best friend.

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But, okay, I'm never going

to say she deserved it, but

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she should have expected it.

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I mean, he left his first wife

for my mother, so he wasn't A

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shining example of loyalty and

kindness and devotion or anything.

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And he said, from the very beginning,

he didn't want to be married to her.

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So, it wasn't like this was a shock, but

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Nora Gibbs: It's that whole thing

that anytime you ever hear anybody

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cheating on them, you're like, Okay,

they cheated on their first spouse.

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They're gonna cheat on you again.

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They're gonna cheat on you.

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And it's nobody ever expects

it to happen to them.

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And it, of course, it happened to her.

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And I think we've already, made it

clear that neither of these people

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were, meant to be together or

Especially kind and loving toward

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anybody else except for themselves.

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Meagan McGovern: So she left,

and honestly, the journey

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to New York was a disaster.

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There was a big ol Winnebago involved, and

we had a German Shepherd with us, it was

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a huge, huge production to get us there.

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Nora Gibbs: Okay, I'm interrupting.

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We had a German Shepherd.

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And it was summertime,

I think, or late summer.

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And we drove across the desert, and I

was probably four or five at this point.

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And we had Hansi, Hansi was her name.

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And she was on the dashboard of the

car, and I can remember these big

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fluffy pieces of hair that would just

come off of her in the air conditioning

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and fly through the whole RV.

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And she had these big tufts of hair.

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It was awful, it was hot and

gross and haunts you smell bad

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and it was a long trip I mean,

California to New York in the 80s.

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I mean, you know, four or

five days on the road I I

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Meagan McGovern: think it was I think

it was more like ten days and I will

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give mom credit For some kind of bravery

because I don't want to do a road trip

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into Winnebago With four little girls by

myself with no cell phones For whatever

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reason, I had flown ahead of all of you,

and I was already in New York with, my

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aunt and uncle, waiting for everybody,

and it took three, four days before we'd

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get a phone call, because she couldn't, to

call us, we'd have to stop at payphones.

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You remember, not everybody

remembers payphones in the days

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before cellphones, but we had

no way of knowing where she was.

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If she didn't call, she was

just disappeared somewhere

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on the side of the road.

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We got to New York and we all set up house

and my mother must have finagled some

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money from her father or from her brother

or from somebody and she, of course, did

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the most practical thing she could imagine

and we rented a house on 40 acres in the

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middle of the Adirondacks at the end of

the summer in a place we had never been to

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We didn't know anything about and

where we didn't know a single person.

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It was a town called Lake Luzerne, New

York It was beautiful, but the house was

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this weird house way up on a hill way down

a long dirt driveway and it was the town.

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I don't know how many the town had 1

pizza parlor and a gas station and it

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was 2 hours from Albany and 5 hours

from New York City and we didn't

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know anything about where we were.

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What we were doing there.

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I don't remember why my mom went there.

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Probably because she liked the

Adirondacks and the house was

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available and it was for rent.

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Nora Gibbs: I think for anybody who's

not aware of where the Adirondacks are,

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they are five and a half hours North

of New York City and about an hour

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and a half, two hours South of Canada.

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it's deep in the heart of

upstate New York, and it is cold.

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It's hard to get to, and there's little

tiny towns every 15 miles up there.

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Because back in the olden days, when

Megan was a baby, they used to have,

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they used to have like that's how

far a carriage could go in a day.

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So that's why they were all, all these

little towns up there are 15 miles apart.

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And the towns would have anywhere

from, 2, 000 people to 3, 000 people

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spread out over, I don't even know

how many miles, but 100 miles.

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And that's kind of how the Adirondacks

was arranged, was it's little towns every

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15 miles, and it's a hard place to live.

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It's very cold.

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It's very remote.

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Meagan McGovern: I mean, you're talking,

it's almost another version of Appalachia.

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Only a colder version.

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It's people who have

lived there for 200 years.

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They're setting their ways.

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They know that if you break down

on the side of the road at 2 a.

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m.

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you will die because it might be negative

30 degrees outside and there might

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be 6 feet of snow coming that night.

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It's the kind of place where people will

just stop and pick you up on the side of

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the road if you're broken down because

they know the only other option is death.

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It's almost like Alaska in that way.

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It is not a welcoming place.

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But we had no idea of this because,

we were little kids and it was

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Nora Gibbs: late summer.

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Meagan McGovern: I mean, we

didn't know what was coming.

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We had no idea how cold

it was going to be.

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We had never seen snow.

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Right.

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And so the upshot of it was, is that by

November, We were out of money, there

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was no, we were in a, I was in a new

school, I think I was in middle school

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at that point, I was probably in 7th

grade, 6th or 7th grade, and I have no

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idea what my mother was planning to do

for money, or what she thought we were

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going to do, but by November it was

clear that my father wasn't going to

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give her any money, that the rent wasn't

going to be paid, her father wasn't

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going to give her any money, and she

was supposed to go get a job, I think.

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What the hell are

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Nora Gibbs: you saying?

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Meagan McGovern: I don't think there

was a concept anywhere in her that

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that was a realistic possibility.

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Nora Gibbs: Right.

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Meagan McGovern: She was just going

to leave us at home and go get a job.

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I'm not sure what she

thought she was going to do.

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But by November it was clear that

she was just going to say, Fuck it.

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I do what I gotta do and I'm

going to make this happen.

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So, we were gone for

a weekend in November.

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And we came back, we were

off visiting relatives.

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And when we came back to the house

It was super dark, and super cold,

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and all the electricity was off.

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And it was a split level house, where you

walk in and there's a walk in basement.

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And I went in first, and I went

down into the basement, which is

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where my bedroom was, and I walked

straight into icy, icy water.

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Because the entire basement was flooded.

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And, it turns out that we didn't

understand how pipes worked,

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and we didn't understand how,

basically, anything worked.

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And we had left.

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Pipes on or something unheated or

something done while we were gone for

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the weekend and we came home and the

entire basement had Eight to ten inches

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of water through the whole thing, but

the basement was our living area That was

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where at least three of the bedrooms in

the house were and somehow or another my

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mother ended up with insurance money for

that And I don't know Well, I don't know.

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I can't I don't know if she planned this

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Nora Gibbs: I don't think she planned

it, but I think it was a happy

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accident that For foreshadowing,

I think it showed her How easy it

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was to get money without working.

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Meagan McGovern: Well, she knew that.

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I mean, she always knew that,

but I don't think she thought

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she could do it on her own.

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Nora Gibbs: Yeah.

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Meagan McGovern: And I don't think

she thought of it as an actual plan.

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It was more of if you see an

opportunity, you seize it.

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But I don't know why she would

have had renter's insurance,

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but apparently she did.

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So maybe somebody had told her to get

renter's insurance when she moved in.

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So she ended up with I don't

know, 12 grand from the

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renter's insurance for that.

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And I think that gave her the idea.

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Because by the time Christmas rolled

around, we're talking six weeks later,

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when we all went back to my grandmother's

house in, she lived in New York,

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Scarsdale, outside of New York City.

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And we went down to my grandmother's

house for Christmas, and I'm sure

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we went there so that my mother

could hit up her parents for money.

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We were there for a couple of days,

and we had some new friends we had

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made watching the house for us, and

I remember being in bed in one of the

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bedrooms at my grandmother's house.

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And hearing my mother answer the phone,

and having her talk to the people who

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were watching the house, and it was very

clear to me that it was a conversation

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that the house was burned down, and

everything was gone, and that my mother

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wasn't surprised, and that this had been

a plan, and that the people who were there

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watching the house had burned it down for

her, and that everything we had had that

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she wanted to save wasn't in the house

but was in the barn next to the house.

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Because, of course, when you've got four

little kids and no money, you rent a house

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with a barn and outbuildings on 40 acres.

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But my mother then went out, and I heard

all of this, and I don't know whether

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my mother was trying to hide it or

didn't care at this point, but then she

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went out and told her mother and father

that, Oh my God, I can't believe this.

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The house burned down.

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This is awful.

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I don't know what we're going to do.

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Oh my God.

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Oh my God.

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And I think this was the day

after Christmas, and we had

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to go back up to Lake Luzerne.

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Where we'd lived for four or five months

and we had sort of maybe settled in.

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We had some friends, we'd been we

had friends we went skating with.

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We liked it there, but

we didn't like the cold.

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And we had to go back up to see our

house and see what we could salvage.

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And Nora, do you remember any of this?

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Nora Gibbs: I remember bits and pieces.

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I remember being at Grandma's

house and knowing something

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bad had happened to our house.

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But it didn't register to me at that

point that our whole house was gone.

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I remember going to

kindergarten in that house.

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I remember learning how to button my

coat and how excited I was to learn

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how to button my coat, how to zipper

my coat, how to tie my shoes properly.

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And I remember a little

bit about the fire.

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I remember there was a lot of

anxiety amongst the family members.

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Meagan McGovern: Oh, yeah.

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I mean, there was.

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And, well, the night before, we

drove up to Lake Lizard, whatever.

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We got there, it was dark, it

was too dark to go see the house.

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And there was a newspaper from the

town that had a story about Maureen

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McGovern and her eight children

or something, because everybody

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thought we had such a big family.

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It was all wrong, and I

was very imitated by that.

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And the next morning, we went to

see it first thing in the morning,

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and I was expecting a house that

looked like it had had a fire.

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But there was a hole in the ground

where the basement was, and it

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was just a smoldering, burning,

nasty lump of ash and soot and wet.

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Nora Gibbs: Wow.

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Meagan McGovern: And the smell still

sticks with me and I could see a

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refrigerator in the middle of it

that was twisted and white and you

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could recognize a refrigerator,

but there was nothing there.

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It wasn't a house that that wasn't

a house with a roof and a structure.

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It had all collapsed in on itself

in a smoldering hole in the ground.

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Nora Gibbs: Wow.

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Meagan McGovern: And well, and it

was snowing on top of it and hissing.

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And

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I don't think mom was

expecting that either.

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Because.

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I can feel the visceral effect of me.

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I can still think about it.

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I can smell the smoke.

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I can see the snow hissing on it.

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And I don't know if mom would

have taken us there if she knew,

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I don't think she was thinking

about the effect on us at all.

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I think she was thinking I need some

money cause I need to get out of here.

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Cause the Adirondacks is a terrible idea.

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What am I doing here?

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I need out.

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But I know how much my

daughter loves her stuff.

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I know how much my

daughter loves her bedroom.

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And.

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I don't know whether mom didn't

think about any of this or thought

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this isn't really their home

because we had moved so much.

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But I would never take Scout to the

remains of a burned out stump of a

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house and show her this wasteland.

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Especially if I knew she

had heard that I did it.

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Mom had it in her head somewhere.

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She knew I had heard all of this.

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So I don't know how she, I

don't know, I don't know how

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she reconciled that in her head.

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Nora Gibbs: think, and this goes back

to something we've said before, that

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she was able to justify anything she

did in, I'm doing it for my kids and

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the end justifies the means, right?

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Like I'm doing this, it's, it's

going to hurt, but we'll have money.

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So we'll be fine.

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And I do remember going to, looking

through the barn for my stuffed

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animals, like looking for things that I,

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Meagan McGovern: nope.

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Nora Gibbs: You know, that I wanted,

there was a small box of my stuff

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that I do remember looking through

and being excited, but then being

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sad that the rest of it wasn't there.

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Meagan McGovern: I think she saved

some photo albums and some books and

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paperwork and I remember her saying,

Oh, we'll just tell the people that,

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we just hadn't unpacked everything yet.

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So anything she wanted to keep, she had

put in the barn in a couple of boxes

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and said, we hadn't unpacked it yet.

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Right.

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But she didn't go through my stuff

and save my stuffed animals or save

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the things that were important to me.

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And I remember a necklace I'd

gotten for graduation from

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sixth grade and that was gone.

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And just some mice stuffed animals

and things that meant a lot to me.

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And it didn't matter.

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We were on the road.

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Two or three days later,

we were just gone.

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And we were on our way to Texas

and in the back of a, I think it

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was a station wagon with Hansi.

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And we left it behind and she,

she was excited and happy and

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thrilled that we were going.

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One of the things that was her kind

of a catchphrase, or the way that she

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thought, and two of her sisters have said

this at some point in their lives, too.

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And we're not going to get into a lot of

stuff with two of our sisters, because

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they have different stories than we do.

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And if they want to tell things

from their version, they can.

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But, there's a phrase that's,

I had no other choice.

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I had to do this.

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I had no other options.

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And, obviously, I don't agree with that.

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I think there's always another

option besides burning your house

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down in front of your four kids.

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I think that my mom did believe that.

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I think that she believed that given

her options of watching CPS come and

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take the kids, or having my father

have control over our life, or

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watching us starve to death, or God

forbid, getting a job and going on

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food stamps, this was her only option.

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And so, that was it.

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That was the beginning of the next

ten years of going from place to

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place to place to try to find a home.

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Nora Gibbs: I think it's important to

also note here that she did burn the

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house down for the insurance money, but

her cousin who lived in the area was in

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charge of the insurance policy and it

didn't pay out and it wasn't his fault.

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It didn't pay out.

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I think they realized that it

was arson pretty quickly on.

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And I don't know if it's because he was

involved or not, but she was not ever.

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She was never charged.

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Meagan McGovern: Well, I think

they couldn't prove it was arson

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because we were gone at the time.

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Nora Gibbs: Right.

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Meagan McGovern: So, the house might have

been set by arson, but they would have had

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to do an investigation to see who did it.

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And it was very, very convenient

that we left town three days later.

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And so my mom went, we all went

to Houston thinking that we

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would get an insurance payout.

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And I think it was not

life changing sum of money.

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I think it was 17, 000, which

is not enough to start over

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if you have no furniture.

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Again, 17, 000

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Nora Gibbs: in the 80s is what?

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80, 000 now?

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100, 000 now?

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Meagan McGovern: No, is it?

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Nora Gibbs: Yeah, it's a lot.

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Let me get my trusty calculator out.

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Meagan McGovern: But maybe it was 14, 000.

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Whatever it was, it was a lot of money.

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It was enough money to get started

and it was for all of the furniture

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and everything we had in the house.

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But she never got it.

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And so we went to Houston with whatever

my grandfather had given us for Christmas.

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Probably, you know, a few hundred bucks.

363

:

Nora Gibbs: 50, 000.

364

:

It's the equivalent of 50, 000 now.

365

:

Meagan McGovern: Okay.

366

:

So that's enough to get

you down for a few months.

367

:

It's enough to make you want

to burn down your house.

368

:

I mean, hell, I want to burn down my

house some days, just so I don't have to

369

:

take care of all this stuff and clean it.

370

:

And I like the idea of starting over.

371

:

I

372

:

Nora Gibbs: mean, 50, 000 is more

than a lot of people make in a year.

373

:

Meagan McGovern: It is.

374

:

Nora Gibbs: You know.

375

:

Meagan McGovern: So given that we went to

Houston and we were there in one house.

376

:

and then we lived in another house,

and we became Texans, and we were in

377

:

one house for three months, and one

for six months, and one for another

378

:

three months, and I would like to say

379

:

Nora Gibbs: that this, we lived in

Houston, in Kingwood, which is north of

380

:

Houston, and it was in February of my

kindergarten year, and I know this because

381

:

it was rodeo time in Houston, and I know

that it was rodeo time because we had

382

:

an art contest at my school at Kingwood,

And I won the best picture for all of

383

:

Houston, kindergartners, and I got to

go, I drew a picture of, it was supposed

384

:

to be like purple mountains majesty.

385

:

And so I drew a picture of these

purple mountains and a cowgirl

386

:

falling off a horse or a cowgirl

riding a horse and it was fantastic.

387

:

I loved it.

388

:

And I won this great art show out

of all of Houston for rodeo and I

389

:

got to, we all got to go to rodeo.

390

:

They called me up on stage to

present me with my trophy and

391

:

I burst into tears because it

was in the Astrodome in the 80s.

392

:

And the Astrodome is huge.

393

:

And they called me up and the guy laughed

at me and he said, Darlin he said,

394

:

this trophy is bigger than you are.

395

:

And I burst into tears

and ran off the stage.

396

:

So that first segue into public speaking.

397

:

Meagan McGovern: And you still have

the trophy in the picture, right?

398

:

Nora Gibbs: For sure,

it's in storage somewhere.

399

:

Not at my house, but at one of the many

storage lockers around the country.

400

:

If anyone listening, sees a picture

of some of that, please let me know,

401

:

because I would love to have that back.

402

:

I do know it was left behind

many years later in Glens Falls,

403

:

New York, at a storage facility.

404

:

Meagan McGovern: Oh, that's

interesting it made it that far.

405

:

That must have been I held on to

406

:

Nora Gibbs: it.

407

:

I held on to it for a long time.

408

:

I carried through many moves as long as I

could and it held on until I was about 14,

409

:

Meagan McGovern: which is a

good many moves at that point,

410

:

Nora Gibbs: for sure.

411

:

Meagan McGovern: And so this whole

period here is kind of a blur.

412

:

We went all over Houston.

413

:

I didn't like Texas.

414

:

My sister Katie loved Texas and fit

right in and she was a good fit and

415

:

she made friends everywhere we went.

416

:

Well, she also had good

417

:

Nora Gibbs: hair and you know Texas.

418

:

I mean, the closer, the bigger

the hair, the closer did you get.

419

:

So,

420

:

Meagan McGovern: well, Katie's

friendly and cheerful and she was

421

:

outgoing and she was pretty and

Morgan was friendly and cheerful and

422

:

outgoing and pretty and you were a

chameleon who could fit in anywhere.

423

:

Nora Gibbs: Um, and also pretty.

424

:

Thank you.

425

:

Meagan McGovern: Oh, I'm sorry.

426

:

I forgot to mention that

every time I mentioned you.

427

:

And I was a weird kid who looked really

weird and didn't know where I was or what

428

:

I was doing and didn't fit in anywhere.

429

:

But I had books so it didn't matter.

430

:

And so, after a year Houston wasn't

working because there was still

431

:

no money and still, I don't know

why she thought there was going

432

:

to be more money somewhere else.

433

:

Or what she thought she

was going to do for money.

434

:

I really don't know what

her actual plan was.

435

:

But we would move somewhere

for three or four months.

436

:

And after two or three months, the

landlord would realize that we weren't

437

:

going to pay the rent for the next

month and give us 30 days notice.

438

:

And then she'd have to go to her father,

or to my father, and to say, okay, I

439

:

need first and last in a new house.

440

:

And it would never be an apartment,

and it would never be a trailer, and

441

:

it would never be something small.

442

:

It would always be a four bedroom

house, sometimes with a pool,

443

:

and two stories, and a big yard.

444

:

And she'd get first, last, and deposit

on the house, and we would move.

445

:

And then three months later, the big

landlord would realize she didn't

446

:

ever went and would move again.

447

:

And so then we would end up, I

think we ended up in Los Angeles

448

:

within maybe 15 months of leaving L.

449

:

A.

450

:

for the first time.

451

:

We went all the way to, to New York,

burned the house down, then ended up all

452

:

over the place and ended up back in L.

453

:

A.

454

:

because I think she thought she

could shake my father down for

455

:

some more money at that point.

456

:

Nora Gibbs: I feel like she

thought, and I remember having

457

:

conversations with her about this,

that if she were closer to him.

458

:

it would be easier to have

him contribute financially.

459

:

She could literally go there

and get money from him.

460

:

That

461

:

Meagan McGovern: he

wouldn't let us starve.

462

:

That he might be a monster, but he

wouldn't be that kind of monster.

463

:

That if he could see us and participate in

our lives, that he wouldn't let us starve.

464

:

Nora Gibbs: Well, and I think this

also goes back to, she really loved

465

:

her father, and she had a really good

relationship with her father when

466

:

they were kids, when she was a kid.

467

:

And her father was a

very good father to her.

468

:

And I think that My own thought is

that there's a, there was a part

469

:

of her that wanted us to have a

relationship with her and I could be

470

:

way out of left field here, but I do

think that she wanted at some point.

471

:

Oh,

472

:

Meagan McGovern: I was devastated.

473

:

I was crazy about daddy.

474

:

I thought he was the best

guy in the whole world.

475

:

I couldn't wait to move home to be with

him, but I was heartbroken that, you know,

476

:

he was living with mom's best friend and

there were all sorts of issues with it.

477

:

And mom said he was a terrible monster and

that he was the worst man on the planet.

478

:

I didn't care.

479

:

I wanted my dad.

480

:

I was thrilled to be going back.

481

:

But I also think this was the eighties.

482

:

Women were supposed to be taken care of

by their husbands, and I think that there

483

:

was an expectation by our family, by mom's

sisters and brother and father, that her

484

:

four kids were not their responsibility.

485

:

They were her husband's responsibility,

and that if he wasn't paying rent

486

:

and child support, that maybe she

just needed to go back where he was,

487

:

and maybe he would take her back,

because at least she hadn't been their

488

:

problem, when maybe she could fix it.

489

:

I think, This story kind of is the

beginning of where her scams really

490

:

took off, and where all of the plans

took off, and where you see her go from,

491

:

Hey, the insurance money thing isn't

working, to I have a plan to make money.

492

:

And from here on out, it is all about

mom and her plans to actually make money.

493

:

Not from insurance scams, and

not from stealing, but from grand

494

:

plans, and grand ideas, and things.

495

:

That will work, not jobs, mind you, and

not careers, but a plan to make money.

496

:

And in the next episode, we're going

to go over the plan that worked and

497

:

the kind of the turning point in

what kept us going because yeah,

498

:

my father didn't come through.

499

:

Spoiler alert.

500

:

This was not going to be, my

father contributing to everything.

501

:

Nora Gibbs: Right.

502

:

Meagan McGovern: So I

guess out of all of that.

503

:

One of the things that you always wonder

about, Nora, and I, and we both talk about

504

:

this a lot is knowing that we didn't have

a home, and knowing that we didn't have

505

:

a hometown, and that every, there's a

sense, and you say you don't even remember

506

:

it, but for me, it was very clear that

everything that you have as a possession

507

:

could go overnight and just be taken

away, and that if you want something, you

508

:

want to keep something, you need to keep

it close by you at all times, honestly.

509

:

You can't even leave your house

for a night without taking what

510

:

you care about because it might

be gone when you come back.

511

:

I mean, how do you think that Affected

you and how you live right now.

512

:

Nora Gibbs: Well, it's funny.

513

:

I was talking to my daughter, Charlotte,

about this yesterday that like I'm,

514

:

when I travel, I always have a bag

with me that has everything that

515

:

I need immediately, if there were

something to happen, it has medication,

516

:

it has my laptop, it has my jewelry,

it has my makeup and has everything.

517

:

And it is on me at all times.

518

:

And I'm very into being organized.

519

:

And having a lot of shit.

520

:

I have a lot of crap.

521

:

as you guys know, I have

a lot of Christmas stuff.

522

:

You guys make fun of it

because I love Christmas.

523

:

I love holidays.

524

:

I love big holidays.

525

:

And I love, I have a store full of

Christmas crap because I love tradition.

526

:

I love being in the same place.

527

:

Meagan McGovern: That's what was

taken from us though was tradition and

528

:

anything sentimental and anything that.

529

:

You want to go back to the

next year and say, I loved the

530

:

way that looked on the tree.

531

:

Let's do this ornament again.

532

:

Or I remember this one from when

I was a kid, all of it is gone.

533

:

Nora Gibbs: Right?

534

:

So I've been very intentional about having

my family and doing the same thing year

535

:

after year and making sure that my kids

have traditions to the point where, Cheryl

536

:

was going off to college this summer.

537

:

so this last year I did big

Christmas because she was like.

538

:

I said, Oh, I don't want to

get the village out this year.

539

:

It's, it's a lot.

540

:

Yes.

541

:

I have a full Christmas village.

542

:

So there's a lot of work

to get the village out.

543

:

She said, but it's my

last Christmas at home.

544

:

You have to have it out.

545

:

And I was thinking, okay.

546

:

And then when I was putting

it away, I said, Oh, good.

547

:

I don't have to do it next year.

548

:

And she said, but it'll be my first

year coming home from college.

549

:

Of course you have to have.

550

:

So I got 17 year old, but it

was the same thing with Emily.

551

:

Emily didn't, she hated the village.

552

:

She thought it was such

a pain in the ass, but.

553

:

When she came home, she was so

thankful that I had put it out for her.

554

:

So, you know, I think that

those little traditions matter.

555

:

Meagan McGovern: You know what's funny?

556

:

As I do, I have a sense

of, I live in two worlds.

557

:

There's one part of me that lives

out of a backpack, and that's all

558

:

I need, and I have always had that.

559

:

Always, always.

560

:

That I can go with my

backpack and go for a month.

561

:

I don't need anything, and I don't care

about anything, and there's part of me

562

:

that wants to just keep going and going.

563

:

I don't care where my home is.

564

:

I can sleep anywhere.

565

:

I would love to go live in Europe

for a year and stay a week here,

566

:

a week there, a week there.

567

:

I don't have that need to be.

568

:

Home and in my own bed and there's also

the reality that I have a farm with nine

569

:

acres and two outbuildings And I have a

barn full of half projects And I have a

570

:

basement with all sorts of projects that

I want to do and I could not wait To

571

:

buy this house and tear down walls and

knock holes in the walls and put up my

572

:

own art and have everything that I Want

exactly the way I wanted it because I

573

:

was never allowed to put holes in walls

And I was never allowed to have my stuff.

574

:

I was never allowed to Put things the way

I wanted to put them and I couldn't paint.

575

:

I couldn't express who I was by,

I'm not like a great designer where

576

:

I need to have things fancy, but

it's nice to have your own bed.

577

:

It's nice to have your own set of sheets

and it's nice to have the right blanket

578

:

that you like and a lamp next to your bed.

579

:

And there were so many houses where we

never even lived there long enough for us

580

:

to have a nightstand with a lamp on top.

581

:

And a reading chair in the room.

582

:

And that's like the first thing I do when

I move into a new house with my kids,

583

:

is I make sure that every kid has a bed,

and a bed frame, and a lamp, and books

584

:

in the room, and a bookshelf, and all the

things that, they matter and they don't.

585

:

Because you can live out

of a backpack, you know?

586

:

You don't need those things.

587

:

Nora Gibbs: But once you've lived out of

the backpack, you don't want to anymore.

588

:

And you want an option if you need

to, but You don't want to do it.

589

:

I mean, I'm the biggest homebody there

ever is and I'm like to the point

590

:

where I don't want to leave my house.

591

:

I love to travel.

592

:

Right.

593

:

While I'm traveling.

594

:

I think the whole time, God,

I wish I were on my own bed.

595

:

God, I wish I were on my

couch with my dog in my house

596

:

Meagan McGovern: doing my

597

:

Nora Gibbs: thing, having my coffee

because I'm so set in my ways now

598

:

because I have been able to build a

life intentionally with the things

599

:

that I love that no one can come

and take from me and no one can say,

600

:

Hey, you're going to have to move.

601

:

You know what, you try to take

my house from me, fuck you, I

602

:

will kill you, pardon my French.

603

:

And you

604

:

Meagan McGovern: know, there's a

sense, and I think finally, I'm 55,

605

:

so finally, I think just because I'm

old enough now that it doesn't have

606

:

the same, I don't know, feel to it.

607

:

When I was young, anytime something

good happened to me, I would just

608

:

say, I'm going to enjoy this now.

609

:

I'm going to enjoy it right now

because I got to enjoy it because

610

:

it might not be here later.

611

:

And when I met Mark.

612

:

And I knew that I was crazy about him.

613

:

I said, okay, well, I'm going

to enjoy it for what it is

614

:

because maybe it won't last.

615

:

And then we got engaged and I said,

well, hey, I've gotten engaged.

616

:

That's all that matters.

617

:

I had a chance to be

engaged to a fantastic man.

618

:

And then we got married and I was

convinced he was going to be dead

619

:

in a year because nothing good

lasts and everything I have that's

620

:

good is going to be taken from me.

621

:

And I kept trying to say to myself that

622

:

it's okay.

623

:

This is enough.

624

:

Because I've had more than

I ever expected to have.

625

:

I've, I've had more than many people get.

626

:

Many people don't ever get

this, this kind of happiness.

627

:

A lot of people never find

their, their true one.

628

:

So it's okay that if this is it and,

and he dies or we don't get to have

629

:

kids or I don't get to have a house.

630

:

This, this is more than

I thought I would have.

631

:

And so that has to be enough.

632

:

But now we've been together 30 years.

633

:

I can't say, well, it's not going to last.

634

:

If we, it ended tomorrow, well, we

did get 30 good years out of it.

635

:

I don't know how much of that

is just childhood trauma.

636

:

I don't know how much of that is

just having a vivid imagination

637

:

and being neurodiverse.

638

:

And how much of it is, I stood

in front of this gaping hole that

639

:

had everything I loved in it.

640

:

And how do you reconcile that, you know,

with, with being able to have nice things?

641

:

Nora Gibbs: Well, I mean, I'm

not a therapist, but I've watched

642

:

a lot of therapy on YouTube.

643

:

And I feel like If you stand in front

of a gaping hole that was your home

644

:

with your mother and you know that she

burnt it to the ground, you're going

645

:

to be a little fucked up in the head.

646

:

I'm not.

647

:

I'm fine.

648

:

I am totally fucked in the head.

649

:

And I understand that.

650

:

And I know what it's from.

651

:

I know it's from a chaotic childhood.

652

:

I will always want to walk through

my backyard and be thankful and

653

:

show gratitude to the universe for

letting me have this in this moment,

654

:

because we didn't have it for so long.

655

:

And I'm anybody who knows me who

works with me, they know that I'm one

656

:

of the most grateful people that has

ever existed because I never thought

657

:

that I would have an opportunity

to have a career that I would have.

658

:

I've been with my

company for 27 years now.

659

:

Like there's such an amount of gratitude

that I don't know if you can have.

660

:

I'm sure people will, argue with this.

661

:

I don't know if you can have, if you

did have things handed to you as a kid,

662

:

if you had everything, if you grew up

in the suburbs or wherever with the

663

:

same parents and money and never having

to worry about anything, I don't know

664

:

if that gratitude is the same as mine,

given that I've had to work hard for

665

:

it and didn't have it and literally had

it all set on fire when I was a kid.

666

:

Meagan McGovern: I think it's, if

you grow up with the expectation

667

:

that you are always going to have.

668

:

A comfortable bed with a lamp next to it

and electricity that works and running

669

:

water and that nothing in your house will

flood or catch on fire and that everything

670

:

you have is the baseline that anything

over that you are grateful for, but

671

:

anything under that you are annoyed by.

672

:

Nora Gibbs: Well, and

I think also, I mean.

673

:

The trust, right?

674

:

I think there's a big thing we're not

talking about here is that we didn't

675

:

trust mom or you didn't trust mom.

676

:

We must have lost a lot of trust

for her and respect for her.

677

:

As much as the 10 year old can have

respect for their mother, we're not

678

:

knowing what that is, but that feeling

must have shifted for you that maybe

679

:

she isn't out for my best interest.

680

:

Meagan McGovern: Oh, I don't know.

681

:

I think I was so aligned with her at that

point she was the only thing keeping us

682

:

from being in that box with the ashes.

683

:

She was the only thing keeping

us from being with CPS.

684

:

And we knew that was the

worst thing possible.

685

:

Nora Gibbs: Right.

686

:

Meagan McGovern: She was the only

one out there fighting for us.

687

:

And so, I think that I still

trusted her to keep us safe.

688

:

I just didn't trust the world anymore.

689

:

I didn't trust that the

world was a safe place.

690

:

But I knew as long as we were with

mom, we would have a place to go.

691

:

And I mean, now obviously I see it

all differently, and that of course,

692

:

she was the problem, not the solution.

693

:

But I think if you've got somebody who's

your life raft, you don't go swimming

694

:

off in search of bigger and better ships.

695

:

They might be out there, but

you're not leaving the life

696

:

raft, and mom was the life raft.

697

:

I couldn't see that she was the

one sinking the ships around us.

698

:

Nora Gibbs: She was on fire

and saying, yeah, she's on the

699

:

Meagan McGovern: ship on fire and

saying, come to the life raft.

700

:

I'm the only place of safety.

701

:

Nora Gibbs: I do remember in that moment.

702

:

And for that, that moment at that time, I

remember being thankful and very surprised

703

:

that none of our animals were hurt.

704

:

We have a lot of animals all the time.

705

:

And that none of us were home

and how lucky it was that

706

:

we weren't and I felt like

707

:

Meagan McGovern: I wasn't going

to go tell my four year old sister

708

:

that mom burned the house down.

709

:

When did you know that?

710

:

When did you find out?

711

:

Or was that just family lore

and you always remember it?

712

:

Nora Gibbs: Honestly, I think

I must have been about 16.

713

:

I think it was just one of those things

that, okay, she wouldn't do that.

714

:

Like, and when I think I was 15 or 16,

when I started really knowing what she was

715

:

capable of and it was at that point, lucky

716

:

Meagan McGovern: you.

717

:

Nora Gibbs: Yeah, you

learned earlier than I did.

718

:

Meagan McGovern: It's funny, there was

an article in one of the newspapers the

719

:

other day that said something about the

grudges that the oldest sister holds

720

:

and how there's a lot of, research about

oldest siblings and especially oldest

721

:

girls and what they are made to shoulder

and bear that younger sisters don't.

722

:

And I thought, you don't

know the half of it.

723

:

You have no idea.

724

:

But I also always thought you got the

short end of it because you didn't

725

:

get to live with mom is long and

I, you know, mom held it together

726

:

until I was out of high school.

727

:

Well, not really held it together.

728

:

You know what I mean?

729

:

Nora Gibbs: Right.

730

:

Meagan McGovern: But at the

same time, yeah, I've got a lot.

731

:

I mean,

732

:

Nora Gibbs: you got to have

a high school experience.

733

:

I didn't get,

734

:

Meagan McGovern: right.

735

:

Nora Gibbs: Obviously we both have

our childhood trauma from this.

736

:

Meagan McGovern: Right.

737

:

Nora Gibbs: I did remember living

with dad a little bit, not very much,

738

:

but I remember little things of that.

739

:

I'm back to when we were in California

One of my favorite stories of Dad

740

:

is, that I do remember, is he was

working for Sesame Street at the time.

741

:

I don't know what he was doing.

742

:

He was a crew chief on Sesame Street.

743

:

And they had a scene set in a candy shop.

744

:

And at the end of the day, they

had nothing left to do with the

745

:

candy, so Dad brought home boxes

and boxes and boxes of candy.

746

:

And he threw it all on the

pool table in the living room.

747

:

Because of

748

:

Meagan McGovern: course

we had a pool table.

749

:

Nora Gibbs: Of course we had a pool table.

750

:

And it was filled, I mean, there was candy

about three feet high on a pool table.

751

:

I mean, just to give you some

idea of what we're talking about.

752

:

And I remember thinking I was

the luckiest kid in the world

753

:

to have this guy for a dad.

754

:

So like literally they

bought me with candy.

755

:

That's,

756

:

Meagan McGovern: well,

that's pretty cheap.

757

:

I mean, we've got to

do so many cool things.

758

:

We always thought we

were the coolest family.

759

:

What we didn't say in all of this

is that while we were in New York.

760

:

We went to the museum and we went to the

all the different museums in New York

761

:

and we went all up and down experiencing

all the cool things in New York City

762

:

and my mother took us to all sorts of

cool places and even on the Trip from

763

:

you know, say New York to Houston.

764

:

We would have stopped at every cool

National Park and every cool side

765

:

trip and gone to all the cool exhibits

and she would have told us stories

766

:

about each one And we would have swam.

767

:

Nora Gibbs: We would have swam in pools

at hotels and had a great time with it and

768

:

eaten and Howard Johnson's along the road.

769

:

And, you know, I have a lot of

really fun memories of being a

770

:

kid and fun road trip memories.

771

:

Meagan McGovern: And every time

that we stopped at a hotel, we

772

:

would hear a different, version

of the food from that area.

773

:

Or what a story about some celebrity

who had lived there or how this

774

:

tied into popular culture or the

history of the Appalachians or

775

:

wherever we were, there was always.

776

:

I mean, we were essentially homeschooled

without being homeschooled, homeschooled.

777

:

Carschooled.

778

:

Carschooled.

779

:

Carschooled.

780

:

So I think we're going to

wrap up this episode here.

781

:

And next episode, we're going to go

into, the plans that my mom had and,

782

:

which ones worked and which ones didn't.

783

:

But this has been more cathartic

than I thought it would.

784

:

I didn't ever think I would get

emotional over my childhood again.

785

:

I thought I was over all that.

786

:

Nora Gibbs: You guys are lucky

this is not video because I think

787

:

there were some tears in her eyes.

788

:

I'm not going to lie.

789

:

Meagan McGovern: Not me.

790

:

I have no emotions.

791

:

Anyway, thank you for

listening to Forever Wild.

792

:

Nora Gibbs: And as always, if you

enjoyed this episode, let us know.

793

:

Leave a review, find Megan

on Facebook or share it with

794

:

somebody who loves a good story.

795

:

Meagan McGovern: And we'd

love to hear from you.

796

:

This was our third episode and

we're just getting our groove here.

797

:

We want to hear your

thoughts, your questions.

798

:

We want to know what resonates and

what you'd like to hear more about.

799

:

Nora Gibbs: And until next

time, as always, stay well.

800

:

Meagan McGovern: Bye.

801

:

Nora Gibbs: Bye.

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About the Podcast

Forever Wild
Stories from the McGovern Girls
Forever Wild is a memoir podcast about four sisters, a con artist mother, and a childhood spent on the run. From mafia bars to game shows, mental hospitals to Australia, it’s a story of survival, chaos, and the search for home. Hosted by sisters Meagan McGovern and Nora Gibbs, this deeply personal series blends dark humor, nostalgia, and raw honesty in a journey you won’t forget.

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Meagan McGovern