Episode 2

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Published on:

28th Feb 2025

Forever Wild, episode 2: The Mafia Bar

Episode 2, Forever Wild: The Art Thief, stolen Rembrandts, and the mafia bar.

What happens when your mother is a brilliant, unstoppable con artist, and you spend your childhood moving from one wild scheme to the next?

In Forever Wild, sisters Meagan McGovern and Nora Gibbs share the unbelievable true story of growing up with Maureen—a woman who could charm anyone, outrun the law, and spin the world into her own creation. From a mafia-run bar to a house full of strangers, from the high-stakes lights of a game show to an escape across the world, their childhood was anything but ordinary.

But Forever Wild is more than just a wild ride. It’s a story of resilience, survival, and the bonds that hold us together when everything else falls apart. Told with dark humor, deep reflection, and the kind of sibling banter that only comes from surviving chaos together, this eight-episode podcast is a gripping, emotional journey through the past—and a reckoning with what remains.

Transcript
Meagan McGovern:

Hi, welcome to Forever Wild, a podcast about family, memories,

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and the stories that shape who we become.

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I'm Megan McGovern.

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I'm the oldest of the four McGovern girls.

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Nora Gibbs: And I'm Nora

Gibbs, the youngest and most

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beautiful of the four girls.

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Together we're sharing our journey

growing up with an actor father,

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a mother who didn't believe that

the rules of society applied to her

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when it came to financial matters.

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And a childhood full

of chaos and adventure.

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And I like to say that where you

come from matters, because it

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helps determine where you're going.

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Meagan McGovern: In every episode,

we tell some stories we probably

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overshare, and we see if we can find

some lessons out of all of this.

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Nora Gibbs: Thanks for joining us.

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This is Forever Wilds.

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Meagan McGovern: All right, so in the

first episode that we did, we talked about

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mom's obituary and about it going viral.

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We talked a little bit about her life.

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Her name was Maureen McGovern, and

she raised the four of us pretty much

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on her own when my father left when

we were 10, and even before we were,

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even before he left, it was kind of

a chaotic upbringing, but it was some

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kind of stability, some kind of normal.

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But at some point, once he left,

all of the wheels came off and

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the adventure went everywhere.

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I call it the adventure.

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I don't know what to call it.

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The adventure ends.

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Yeah, the adventure begins.

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We were on the road, on and off,

from the time my dad left until

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There was never any real stability.

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I don't think we ever lived in a

house more than I don't know, it

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was the longest we lived somewhere.

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Six months maybe?

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No, I think we lived on Raymer

Street, one of our houses, for

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a year and a half, two years.

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That's over the entire course of the

life from my 10 to 20 or 10 to 18 or

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whatever it was, I don't think we lived

any, some of the houses were three

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months, some were six weeks, some were

in hotels, it was pretty chaotic, and so

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I don't know what you call those years,

I don't want to call them I don't know.

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Whatever.

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This is how it all started.

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Childhood.

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That was just our childhood.

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Yes.

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But there is a divide, a

before and after, right.

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And because I'm six years older

than Nora, I remember the before.

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This was my childhood up

until 10, and then it was not.

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And I think my dad left

when Nora was four.

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So she has very different

memories than I do.

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For sure.

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So today I think we're going to start

with how this all began and some of

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the background on my mother about

how we started off on this endless

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parade of houses and moving from

place to place and chaos and schemes

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and scams and All sorts of things.

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So, we're going to rewind.

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So, Nora, why don't you

tell me what you know.

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Nora Gibbs: So, we're gonna, when

we read the obituary and wrote the

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obituary, it was really interesting.

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A lot of people were very interested

when the word mafia came up and

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how my parents owned a bar in New

York City in Greenwich Village.

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So we're going to go back to the sixties.

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We're going to go back to when Maureen

and Don, when they ran the marketplace

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in East village it wasn't, it wasn't

their bar, the bar turns out, and

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I'm just learning about this now.

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It's actually kind of interesting.

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The bar was a mafia bar and I know that.

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In the original obituary, it

said it was the corner bistro.

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I was very sad to learn that

it was not the corner bistro.

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It's called the marketplace

in East Village.

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So Megan's going to tell us a lot

about, the chaos that ensued when you

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own a bar that's run by the mafia.

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Probably not the best

business idea, or maybe it is.

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I don't know.

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Let's see what happens.

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Meagan McGovern: So, a lot of this

is pieced together stories, because

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mom talked a little bit about this.

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She would say, well, when your father was

stabbed in the kidneys by the Mafia, and

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she made a big deal out of the fact that

he showed up on her doorstep one night

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at, two o'clock in the morning with a

stab wound and, and talked a lot about

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it, but she didn't really go into What

that meant, she just said they ran a bar.

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And I didn't know a lot of this

until years and years later.

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And I finally got a

letter, a copy of a letter.

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And I think I got the

letter after my mom died.

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And the letter was written in

:

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that happened in 1963, 1964.

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So we're talking things

that happened 55 years ago.

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It's all still interesting stories,

and as Nora says, everybody loves mafia

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stories in New York City in the 60s.

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But this is also an interesting way

to explain why my mother was who she

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was, and also what she was capable of.

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Because when we were little, we

didn't know what was truth and what

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was fiction, and my mother would

have pretended, at least sworn, that

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she was a law abiding citizen who

never stole anything from anybody.

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So I got this letter.

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And it was from my father's first wife,

and I don't know how much, I've talked

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about this before, but we didn't know

that my father was married before.

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We didn't know my father had a kid.

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We didn't know any of this.

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My mother and father kept

this completely secret.

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I remember when I was in, my parents

got married when I was in first grade.

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And I remember.

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I was six weeks old at my parents wedding.

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Yeah, but you don't remember it.

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I remember it.

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And I remember talking to one of my.

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I remember talking to

somebody at school about it.

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And my mother said, don't tell

anybody we're getting married.

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And I said, Okay, why should I not

tell anybody you're getting married?

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Well, we originally got married at

a Justice of the Peace years ago.

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We've been married this whole time.

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I don't want anybody to think

you were born out of wedlock.

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I feel like she was lying.

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I think he was still marrying to his

wife this whole time, and we had no idea.

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And So, for whatever reason,

that's the kind of background we

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had, that we didn't know anything.

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So we finally found out that my mother and

father, my father had been married before,

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and he had a son named Donald McGovern Jr.

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that he abandoned.

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And later on, we ended up becoming

friends with Donnie, and we talked to

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him, and we got all of this information

from him, who Shout out to Donnie.

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Nora Gibbs: Yeah,

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Meagan McGovern: shout out to him.

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He sees my mother in a very

different light than we do.

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He doesn't see her as his

mom, we see her as my mom.

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He sees her as the woman who, ran off

with my father and left me abandoned

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as a three year old, had four

kids, and kept me secret from them.

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Nora Gibbs: So, I got to spend a long

weekend with Donnie and his mother,

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Marilyn, and our dad in New York City.

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I was like 16 years old and

his mother was fantastic.

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Marilyn was an artist and she was

just this wonderful tiny little thing.

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And her, she had this fantastic apartment

overlooking what's the name of that park?

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I can't remember what the art is.

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Washington Square Park.

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Washington Square Park.

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And it's just a beautiful

little apartment.

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Yeah, but she was just, she was very kind.

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She was very sweet, and I could

never imagine her being someone,

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being with someone like that.

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But, sorry,

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Meagan McGovern: I digress.

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No, that's all right.

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So, all I know about this is that Marilyn

wrote this letter in:

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together how bad it was and what the

mess was that our parents left behind

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when they left New York City because of

the Mafia and because of all of this.

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So, because of her openness with

this and telling all of this, we have

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this story that's Incredible, really.

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So she says in 1964, my dad was a

stage manager at Lincoln Center.

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That's what he did.

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He was, he wanted to be an actor, but

he got also involved in stage managing

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and theater and behind the scenes stuff.

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And he was good at it.

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And so at that point, she said she had a

two year old and he left Lincoln Center

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and instead he decided to open a bar.

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And so he wanted to open up a neighborhood

bar and he got some funding from.

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And so it was going to be

a really cool acting bar.

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And, I think it ended up, all of her

friends were putting money into it.

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And it was some actress he was sleeping

with, she says, called Ketty Fringe.

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Do you know her name?

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Is she famous?

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I think her name is Ketty, Ketty

Fringe or something like that.

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And I, she says she was an actress

or a playwright or something else.

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And I don't know who that was.

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However it was, she ended up

putting a lot of money into the bar.

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My dad's first wife, Marilyn, she

said that this lady put something

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like 70, 000 into the bar, which

is a huge amount of money for:

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And, but then my dad would come home,

she says, and talk about how he's

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swindling this lady, and about how he

had her all sewn up, and about how he's

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never going to give her back money.

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And so Marilyn, of course, didn't

like this and they fought and

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she says, I don't know exactly

how or when the mafia moved in.

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Sometime that winter, Dawn started

talking about loan sharks and I got

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the impression that, he borrowed money

from them and it was a can't lose

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operation and we fought about that too.

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So, in this letter, she talks

about the name of the mafia people.

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I would like to interject

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Nora Gibbs: real quick

in:

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712, 000.

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Meagan McGovern: Okay.

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Yeah.

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So that's a lot of money.

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I mean, if you're into the mafia

for 700, 000, that's a lot of money.

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So in this letter, she names,

Wait, was he into the actress?

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Is that how much the actress?

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No, this is to, well, I guess it

was probably to the actress first

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and then it went into the mafia.

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I don't even know how much went

into who, who went into what.

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So here's the thing.

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There was 70, 000 invested in the bar.

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All right.

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So my dad.

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On his deathbed would not tell us the name

of the mafia people he was involved with.

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And in this letter, it says it.

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And then my dad did tell me on his

deathbed, when he was literally

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dying, and said, You must swear

to never tell anybody this.

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No, I don't have to say my name.

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Okay, so Am I allowed to

say the name on the podcast?

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This is 60 years later.

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Is somebody going to come after

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Nora Gibbs: us?

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You are not allowed to.

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If somebody's interested in who it

is, they are welcome to call you and

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I will give them your phone number

and you can tell them on the phone,

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you are not allowed to say it.

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Okay, fine.

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Meagan McGovern: Anyway, I don't

even know who the mafia was or

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if this guy was famous or not.

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So the.

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Marilyn says she was

terrified of the Mafia.

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She didn't want to be around it, but

they had a great grand opening and it was

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supposed to be a gay bar with all of the,

with all of the theater friends, but then

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the Mafia showed up too, and no one really

knew what kind of bar it was going to be.

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There was a lot of fighting.

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She said they hired a chef

named Robert from Canada.

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You mean Bob?

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It was what?

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Bob.

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Yeah, Bob from Canada.

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And it turned out he was a thief.

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So my dad told her at one point that

Robert had stolen several Rembrandts

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from a private museum in or near Boston.

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So.

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This is

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Nora Gibbs: insane to me.

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Like, this is the first time I'm

really hearing this whole story.

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And I just, I can't wrap

my head around this topic.

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Meagan McGovern: I don't understand

why there's a chef in New York City.

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Who's stealing Rembrandt?

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I don't

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Nora Gibbs: understand.

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Meagan McGovern: He must come

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Nora Gibbs: herself chef to someone.

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I mean, I don't wanna speculate, but

I'm assuming that's how this happened.

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Working down dinner at someone's house.

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It's all them.

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I mean,

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Meagan McGovern: maybe, I don't know.

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But she says that at some point Roberta

stole the Rembrandt and that my dad

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showed her photos of the Rembrandt,

and they were in some private museums,

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so I don't know whether that means

a person's house or where they

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were, but my dad had the paintings

in the basement of the marketplace.

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And he wanted to bring them to their

apartment, and she said they fought like

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crazy over it, and he said, she said,

I told him to get rid of the paintings

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or I'm going to go to the police,

and he said that if Marilyn wouldn't

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support him, then his girlfriend would.

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Yeah, she said that was an understate

she said I was becoming aware that

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he was involved with Maureen Smith

Who was ostensibly his barmaid at

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the marketplace more on that later.

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So yeah, that was mom a Barmaid and

she said if I hadn't been aware, it was

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a mafia operation before the opening.

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I was that night It was a hundred

percent mafia turnout One of

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them had managed to get some of

the chic showbiz friends there.

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They were supposed to have been

the ones the place was designed

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for, and the hoods turned them

off right away, and vice versa.

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So it was a private opening with a sort

of demonstration dinner that turned out

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to be pretty good, but after dinner the

chic crowd got the hell out and left the

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place to the goons and their ladies, which

I think is fantastic that somebody's using

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the word goons because I didn't think

that was a real word that people used.

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Goons and ladies.

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And she said there was all sorts of stuff.

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It was decided to turn the

bar into a strictly gay bar.

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And this was before, the

law was really changed.

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After that, the bar kept being busted

all the time and she said, I remember the

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first time I got a phone call from someone

who said I was a policeman at four in the

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morning telling me that my husband had

been arrested for possession of narcotics.

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And I told him there had to be a mistake

because I knew perfectly well that

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Don was rabid on the subject and would

have nothing to do with narcotics.

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I did not believe it and he

should check his records again.

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And she said, I ruined their

fixed fishing expedition.

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And the police officer called me

back to say, I sounded so certain.

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And it was somebody else that Don was

arrested, but they were only charged with

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maintaining a disorderly bar or something.

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And she said, nobody really

knew what was going on.

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I don't understand why

the law was involved.

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I don't understand what the police

wanted, but he came home less and less.

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And anyway, after all of that, there was.

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It just became clear that my father was

more and more involved with the mafia and

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the money, and there was loan sharking,

and there was something going on, credit

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cards and with fraud, and that all of

this, my mother is becoming more and more

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involved with my father at this point.

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And, my mother apparently decided that

the first wife, or the wife, should be

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gotten off of the scene and arranged for

Marilyn and her son, Donnie, to move into

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an apartment on Staten Island, and But

they wrote a bad check for that apartment.

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And after my mom and dad left for

California, poor Marilyn found out that

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the check for the deposit and the first

month's rent was bounced, and that she

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was stuck in an apartment with a two year

old that they didn't have first month,

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last month, second month's rent, anything.

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There was no money and they just left him.

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There were four months in, in arrears.

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And he said that he told her

that he was leaving to go to

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California to get rid of my mom.

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He was going to dump her in LA.

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, and then he just fell in love

with California and stayed.

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I, I don't know, but I know

he, he always used to say he

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was trying to get rid of her.

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He used to say she was a one

night stand that lasted 20 years.

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Nora Gibbs: Yeah.

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That was his name.

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Meagan McGovern: And so I

can't imagine what was he gonna

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do with her in California?

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Kill her.

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Drop her off.

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Lieber on the beach.

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I mean what?

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Anyway, I think they were in super

credit card debt There was a whole bunch

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of stuff and so the kicker to all this

is that after they left and after they

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went to California Marilyn gets a letter

in the mail that there's a bill from

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B Altman's for 300 And there's also B.

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Altman's was at a department store

in New York City in the 60s, correct?

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Yeah, I think so.

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And then there was another

one from oh, Bloomingdale's.

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So she said, right after they left, the B.

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Altman bill comes to a head, and

there's threatening phone calls

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from a collections agency with

several hundred dollars in her name.

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And I was threatened with arrest for

fraud, and I finally had to, she said she

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had to call a lawyer and ask him for help.

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And it turns out, and Nora will like this

because I don't think she's heard all

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of this yet, that she looked into it.

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There were 33 department stores

involved, with a total of 66,

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000 run up in Maryland's name.

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Nora Gibbs: Wow.

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Alright if 70, 000?

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Meagan McGovern: Yeah,

if 000, so it's 650, 000.

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So in addition to the 700, 000,

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Nora Gibbs: I can spend a lot

of money, but that's a lot of,

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that's a lot of credit cards.

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Meagan McGovern: And 33 department

stores, like how much time does she have?

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I guess that's my question

also, where did 600 grand go?

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Well, I don't think

she got cash out of it.

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I think she got.

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Clothes and God, I kind of remember

dad saying something about it, that he

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had some kind of thing where she would

come home with designer clothes or

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something and the mafia would sell them.

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I don't know.

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But if

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Nora Gibbs: you're partnering with

the mafia and you steal clothes and

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then the mafia sells them and gets

you some of it, they probably, they're

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not going to give you ass, right?

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It's the mafia.

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You're going to get it.

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Meagan McGovern: You're just

doing it for the employee.

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Yeah.

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500.

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Yeah.

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Yeah um, she said one of the

stores had become suspicious of Mr.

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and Mrs.

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McGovern, and it tailed them, and there

were some really good pictures of Mrs.

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McGovern, and they described

to her lawyer as, as blonde and

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very heavy, which my mother was

blonde and very heavy at the time.

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Marilyn was 110 pounds, and tiny, and dark

haired, and so she cooperated with the

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police, and she told them, obviously, that

her ex husband, or her husband, and this

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girlfriend of his had run all of this up,

and she said dad called her, and I told

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him what was happening, and he said, oh,

I never worried about you getting into

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trouble because you're innocent, and we

ran away because, everybody's after us,

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good guys and black guys, and I'm running

away with her because she's blackmailing

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me, and I think I'm going to murder her.

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You said that about mom?

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Yeah, he said I think that, he said he

was seriously considering murdering her.

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So Marilyn said forget it, that you're a

perfect team and they deserved each other.

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Nora Gibbs: Good for her.

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Good for Marilyn, you know?

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I mean, honestly, if my husband

left me for some Our maid and

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then, whatever, good for her.

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Yeah,

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Meagan McGovern: so he said that,

I guess dad told her that there

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was a meeting at the Copa Cabana.

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I don't think, I didn't think

Copa Cabana was a good, I didn't

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think that was a real place.

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But apparently there was a meeting

at the Copa Cabana with the boys.

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That was like a whole thing.

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I guess it was because there

was a meeting to discuss how

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the marketplace should be run.

373

:

And they were being busted

regularly as gay bar.

374

:

And they wanted it to be, to

stay open and be run as a bust

375

:

out gay bar until they could get

everything out of it that they could.

376

:

Nora Gibbs: I do have one funny story.

377

:

I did talk to Aunt Maggie about the

bar, what she remembered about it.

378

:

And she said that there was,

and I'm not going to name their

379

:

names because I don't want to, I

don't know, they're very famous.

380

:

But there was a very famous singer who

used to frequent the marketplace and

381

:

she used to see him there all the time.

382

:

And he was one of the Jersey Boys.

383

:

He was one of the guys that sang.

384

:

You know, one of the

big printers in the 60s.

385

:

And his driver at the time, his limo

driver was, I'll just say one of the main

386

:

actors from Goodfellas, the moth dude.

387

:

And I'll leave it at that.

388

:

Meagan McGovern: You know, it's not

really fair to do this and not make names.

389

:

Nora Gibbs: All right, Joe

Pesci used to be that, a

390

:

Meagan McGovern: driver,

that's all I'm going to say.

391

:

I don't think he's going to be mad

that we mentioned that he used to

392

:

drive someone in New York City.

393

:

Anyway, so this is apparently what

actually happened is my dad said

394

:

they were going to close the bar.

395

:

He got heavy about it and they invited

him into the men's room for a private

396

:

word and he got stabbed and he got stabbed

in the kidney and he was beaten badly.

397

:

One eye was closed.

398

:

His face looked like

he'd been worked over.

399

:

He told everyone he had

been in a car wreck.

400

:

Nora Gibbs: Well he used to tell me, and

he used to tell me in working this all

401

:

the time, that he was, he thought he was

going to die, and he had been stabbed.

402

:

And the only reason he lived was

because there was a homeless person,

403

:

um, there was a bum at the door.

404

:

He used to say, a bum saved my life.

405

:

A bum was banging on the door

of the bathroom, trying to get

406

:

in there to use the bathroom.

407

:

And he was so persistent, trying to get in

the bathroom, that they ended up leaving

408

:

him bleeding to death in the bathroom.

409

:

And they left, and the bum walked in, and

it was like, what the fuck happened to

410

:

Meagan McGovern: you?

411

:

That's pretty funny.

412

:

So a bum saved his life.

413

:

I mean, Mom said he showed

up on her door at 3 a.

414

:

m.

415

:

with the wounds.

416

:

And I, she did, Marilyn says

he was staying with Maureen.

417

:

And he didn't want Donnie

and me to see him like that.

418

:

And I insisted he come

home, he finally did.

419

:

And she said she made him go to St.

420

:

Vincent's for tetanus dots and stitches.

421

:

And she said that, that night.

422

:

The mafia guy and I can't say his

name came over and we tried to

423

:

smooth everything over and from

that point on he left and he said,

424

:

Don said he'd been in the wrong.

425

:

He had just gotten out of line.

426

:

He hadn't showed respect toward the

guy and that the guys had no choice.

427

:

And it said the bar continued to be

run as a bust out bar until it closed

428

:

down 11 months after it opened.

429

:

So all that fucking money, excuse me.

430

:

So all that

431

:

Nora Gibbs: happened in 11 months.

432

:

Meagan McGovern: Yeah, and like 700,

000 into the bar, the equivalent

433

:

of 700, plus that much money in

all of the clothes they stole.

434

:

So we're talking about, one

and a half million dollars and

435

:

the bar is closed in 11 months.

436

:

And it said the Marshall came up to

claim everything on the premises and

437

:

Don brought over to the apartment,

the table, eight chairs, a church pew,

438

:

a chandelier, all the kitchen stuff.

439

:

I wish I could hear.

440

:

I know.

441

:

He said he even brought over the liquor

license framed as a souvenir, and

442

:

Nora Gibbs: All right, Donny, if

you're listening to this, I'm going

443

:

to need that church pew and the liquor

444

:

Meagan McGovern: license.

445

:

And anyway, that's all I know, but

that's how they ended up in California.

446

:

And so when we were growing

up, to them, so So had

447

:

Nora Gibbs: they come back to California

448

:

Meagan McGovern: before,

either of them, before that?

449

:

Oh, mom went to college in San Francisco.

450

:

Yeah, I think mom had

been to San Francisco.

451

:

I don't think either of

them had ever been to L.

452

:

A.,

453

:

but I'm just curious how they

ended up Because mom wanted

454

:

dad to be a famous actor.

455

:

Okay.

456

:

Dad was really handsome

and a really good actor.

457

:

He was really talented

and really good at it,

458

:

Nora Gibbs: but he was also talented

with his job as a crew chief, as a set

459

:

director, is that type of thing as well.

460

:

So if you're not acting and you

can't, it's a good place to live.

461

:

If you need a side job, he's

462

:

Meagan McGovern: also

didn't want to be famous.

463

:

He liked theater.

464

:

He liked the craft.

465

:

He liked.

466

:

The story, and he had a

self destructive streak.

467

:

He didn't want to be famous,

but mom wanted him to be famous.

468

:

She thought he wasn't pushing himself

hard enough, and You know, if you're going

469

:

to be an actor and you can't do it in L.

470

:

A.,

471

:

you can't do it in New

York, you gotta go to L.

472

:

A.

473

:

So I think that's why they ended up there.

474

:

Makes sense.

475

:

So they say this happened 1964, 65,

I don't know what they did between

476

:

65 and when I was born in 69.

477

:

But, all of this time they're

posing as a normal couple, but this

478

:

is only 3 or 4 years old to them.

479

:

This stuff is not You know, way in their

past, so by the time I'm five, six years

480

:

old, yeah, this is 10 years ago, 10 years

ago can come back to haunt you if you're,

481

:

dealing with the mafia stuff and, and

also, all these legal issues where the

482

:

police might want you, there might be

warrants for your arrest, you can't go

483

:

back to New York City, even though that's

where you're from, because you might be

484

:

arrested, so, at the time you're born in

:

485

:

mother pretends, That she's a perfectly

normal housewife, and I remember her

486

:

taking me to brownies, and to Girl Scouts,

and to all of this stuff, and I don't

487

:

think there was any talk of who she was.

488

:

She would have told us that she had never

stolen anything in her life, and that

489

:

she was a good Catholic girl, and she

didn't know what we were talking about.

490

:

Okay, so the reason that I think

we're telling all this story.

491

:

So we ended up, my mother and father

ended up in California and there

492

:

was, I'm sure there was still chaos.

493

:

They moved from Los Angeles to Ohio.

494

:

They had 4 girls and 6 years.

495

:

And by the time I was born, we were back

in Los Angeles, then back at a ranch and.

496

:

We still moved a lot, but it was, there

was always a steady income, and I was,

497

:

Nora Gibbs: I was born in Van Nuys.

498

:

So we were in the valley at that point.

499

:

Meagan McGovern: Yeah.

500

:

Oh, yeah, we were born on

Archwood street in Van Nuys.

501

:

So, and I just.

502

:

There is a lot of back and forth

and a lot of, but there was always

503

:

an income, as you were saying

before that did well at his job.

504

:

He liked working in TV and behind the

scenes and working in, he worked for

505

:

KTTV, which is a movie studio and it

became Fox TV and everything else.

506

:

And he loved it, and he liked

going to work every single day.

507

:

He always worked overtime, it

was steady, and my mother spent

508

:

more money than he could make.

509

:

Nora Gibbs: If you're ever in Los Angeles,

or if you're in Los Angeles, there used

510

:

to be a building, I think it's still

there, it was a building that had stairs

511

:

up to the stars, and that was the Fox

TV building, so I was very proud of him

512

:

growing up, that he worked at Fox TV.

513

:

Meagan McGovern: Yeah, it was fun, and

it was good to know that he had a real

514

:

job, and the reason we're telling the

story though is because this is how,

515

:

we didn't understand where we came

from, I think at first, and when The

516

:

whirlwind and the kind of chaos of

moving from place to place to place

517

:

and when my mom had us on her own.

518

:

I don't think we understood who my mother

was or where this had come from because

519

:

my entire childhood, up until I was 10

years old, we believed that my mother and

520

:

father were nice, normal, steady people.

521

:

My father held down a nice, normal job.

522

:

And my mother was a nice

Catholic girl from New York.

523

:

Who would never steal from anyone.

524

:

She took us to church.

525

:

She was kind.

526

:

She liked to bake cookies.

527

:

And on the next episode, we're

going to talk about what happened

528

:

once my father left and we

actually moved from place to place.

529

:

Nora Gibbs: Spoiler alert,

their marriage didn't end well.

530

:

Meagan McGovern: I don't think anything

could have ended well with these two.

531

:

It

532

:

Nora Gibbs: was not a happy

533

:

Meagan McGovern: break.

534

:

But one thing I wanted to kind of touch

on was what do you think about mom and

535

:

remorse and how she felt about Marilyn

and about, she always used to say that

536

:

her crimes were victimless crimes, that

either it's just money and you're only

537

:

defrauding insurance companies, so it

doesn't matter, or nobody's getting

538

:

hurt and she would never hurt somebody.

539

:

So.

540

:

This kind of tells a different

story looking at it from Marilyn's

541

:

perspective instead of from mom's.

542

:

Nora Gibbs: Right.

543

:

And it's funny, it's only recently that

I've begun, and I don't know why only

544

:

recently, but I've been thinking about

Marilyn a lot in the past couple of years.

545

:

Just, How she dodged a bullet, it

was probably, and I know that she

546

:

loved my father very much and our

father and, but he was just, he

547

:

wasn't a great guy to be married to.

548

:

And I think that mom showed no remorse

and mom to not consider Maryland at all.

549

:

She just didn't even consider

her like, it was, she was a

550

:

non issue because mom was very.

551

:

intense when she wanted something.

552

:

And if she wanted something,

there was no getting her way.

553

:

And I think that she just saw

Marilyn as in her way to get time,

554

:

even though he wasn't hers to have.

555

:

She saw him as a prize to be won.

556

:

Meagan McGovern: Well,

the story with that.

557

:

Is that the night my mother met

my father, she was at a bar and,

558

:

she saw my father and that was it.

559

:

She was going to have him.

560

:

It didn't matter that he was married.

561

:

None of it mattered.

562

:

She was willing to drug him

to keep him away from Marilyn.

563

:

She was willing to fight Marilyn over him.

564

:

All of this.

565

:

I don't know.

566

:

What kind of That's how I feel

567

:

Nora Gibbs: when David

is staying home with me.

568

:

When he's thinking about going out

with his friends, I'm like, no, let

569

:

me just drug you so you don't go out.

570

:

Meagan McGovern: Can you imagine?

571

:

Can you imagine that life?

572

:

That I want your wife to be

mad at you and throw you out.

573

:

So I'm going to drug your coffee so

that you end up sleeping here overnight.

574

:

And that's the basis to start

a life with four little girls.

575

:

Is

576

:

Nora Gibbs: that so far

from the mom that I know?

577

:

Like that I knew brewing up?

578

:

Did think that she did this kind of thing.

579

:

And obviously I'm laughing at it.

580

:

No, no, they should drug their husbands.

581

:

I mean, you know, unless

they're an asshole.

582

:

But

583

:

Meagan McGovern: I was going to

say it depends on the husband.

584

:

Yeah,

585

:

Nora Gibbs: it depends on the husband.

586

:

It's just, it's such an interesting

thing to me, this whole thing.

587

:

Like, it seems like some

kind, someone else's life.

588

:

I can't believe this is a

mother we're talking about.

589

:

Meagan McGovern: One of the things I

think that still resonates with me,

590

:

and, I never like to admit where I line

up with my mother and where I am like

591

:

my mother, but I think the ability to

compartmentalize things and to say.

592

:

I am able to do something bad in the

pursuit of something good, and to convince

593

:

yourself and rationalize that it is

perfectly okay to do this, I think that's

594

:

something I have a lot of, and that I have

to fight all the time, because I would

595

:

really, if I did not have Mark around,

I might not be quite the that's a red

596

:

Nora Gibbs: herring, because I have

the same exact gene, and I know

597

:

that I can rationalize anything.

598

:

If I had to murder somebody, I'd be

like, oh, well, there's certainly

599

:

a good reason I had to kill them.

600

:

Yeah,

601

:

Meagan McGovern: I mean, I would

have, I would have no remorse over

602

:

it if I believed if I could talk

myself into anything and the ability

603

:

to say, well, Marilyn doesn't matter.

604

:

Only this matters and laser

minded focus on your goal.

605

:

Whether the goal is a

good goal or a bad goal.

606

:

If the goal is to get the man

and keep him at all costs.

607

:

She did it

608

:

Nora Gibbs: actually.

609

:

I've been able to funnel my.

610

:

Laser driven focus into my career and

been able to have something great.

611

:

I want sales and it's been great for me.

612

:

As far as I have been able

613

:

Meagan McGovern: to focus it into 12

or 14 completely useless hobbies and

614

:

obsessions that nobody else has any use

for and that absolutely make no money.

615

:

And that don't have any actual

value in real life except to me.

616

:

So if you want to make a stained glass

window or know how to knit an intricate

617

:

sweater, but only one kind that like,

you can't actually translate that

618

:

into knitting lessons or anything.

619

:

And if you want to know how to get

your kid into college, that's it.

620

:

That's what I know how to do and I

think the world is lucky that I haven't

621

:

translated that into how to murder your

husband or how to escape from the mafia.

622

:

Nora Gibbs: If you're having supply

chain issues and your electronic

623

:

component situation, I am your girl.

624

:

I just tell you that's what I do.

625

:

I do it well.

626

:

I'm great at supply chain.

627

:

That's my life.

628

:

So, so yeah.

629

:

Wrap this up pretty quick.

630

:

Meagan McGovern: But anyway, I think

that that is an interesting I think

631

:

it's always kind of good to look

and see when we start telling these

632

:

stories about mom Right to see what the

background was because without that it

633

:

just sounds like she just went crazy,

you know Dad left and she went nuts.

634

:

We're like, oh no, she

actually just went back

635

:

Nora Gibbs: This is an onion.

636

:

I mean, this is layer after layer

after layer of trauma and bad decision

637

:

after bad decision with some good

decision, but not a bad decision.

638

:

And it's, yeah, this is

a little, she's an onion.

639

:

Meagan McGovern: Yeah.

640

:

All right.

641

:

So I think we're going to wrap it

up for this episode and thank you

642

:

for listening to Forever Wild.

643

:

Nora Gibbs: And as always, if

you've enjoyed this episode, let

644

:

us know, find Megan on Facebook.

645

:

I'm probably have my Facebook

account shut down at this point.

646

:

But You know, let us know.

647

:

I'm sure you'll be able to find me too.

648

:

We do have an Instagram and we have our

Facebook account, so you're welcome to

649

:

reach out and let us know what you think.

650

:

As always, if you knew our

mom, send us your stories.

651

:

Meagan McGovern: We would

love to hear from you.

652

:

We'd like your questions, your thoughts.

653

:

We want to know what resonates and

what you want to hear more about.

654

:

Nora Gibbs: All right.

655

:

Until next time, stay wild.

656

:

Bye.

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About the Podcast

Forever Wild
Stories from the McGovern Girls
Forever Wild is a memoir podcast about four sisters, a con artist mother, and a childhood spent on the run. From mafia bars to game shows, mental hospitals to Australia, it’s a story of survival, chaos, and the search for home. Hosted by sisters Meagan McGovern and Nora Gibbs, this deeply personal series blends dark humor, nostalgia, and raw honesty in a journey you won’t forget.

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Meagan McGovern