Episode 5

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Published on:

22nd Mar 2025

Forever Wild, episode 5: Sisterhood

Navigating Chaos: Our Journey from Childhood to Now

In this episode of Forever Wild, hosts Meagan McGovern and Nora Gibbs delve into their unique upbringing. They share the differences in their current lives, with Meagan living on a farm and pursuing writing, and Nora working in electronics distribution.

The sisters reflect on family dynamics, personal growth, and their search for stability amidst a chaotic childhood, emphasizing the roles and labels within their family and how these have influenced their present lives.

Transcript
Meagan McGovern:

Hi, welcome to Forever Wild, a podcast about family, memory,

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and the stories that shape who we become.

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I'm Megan McGovern, the

oldest of four sisters.

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Nora Gibbs: And I'm Nora Gibbs,

the youngest of the four sisters

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with the best podcasting voice.

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Together, we're sharing our journey

growing up with an actor father, a

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mother who didn't think the rules

applied to her, at least financially,

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and a childhood full of chaos,

adventure, and unforgettable moments.

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Meagan McGovern: It's not hard to have

a better podcasting voice than I do.

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That's one of my secret

shames, but anyway.

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Every episode we tell stories about

our childhood and we dive deep into how

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we're shaped by our past and how siblings

who come from the same families can

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see their past in very different ways.

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Nora Gibbs: Thanks for joining us.

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This is Forever Wild.

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Meagan McGovern: Okay, so I think

what we're going to do today

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is we're going to have a quick

catch up conversation between us.

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A lot of people have been asking

about where Nora and I are now

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and kind of how we got here.

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Because our childhood was Kind of chaotic

and it's funny because we grew up in

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Los Angeles and Connecticut and Oregon.

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And yet I'm in Washington state

and my sister's in Houston.

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And so I think it's worth

talking about how we got here.

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And Nora really likes.

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Where she is now, and she's proud of

where she is now, she should be, and

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I think we should talk a little bit

about, you know, the interplay of our

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family and how we ended up where we are.

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So Norah, you can start.

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Nora Gibbs: Well, I think it's important

to point out that Megan wanted to move

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as far away from me as humanly possible.

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So she decided to move to the northwest

corner of America, 30 miles from Canada.

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Meagan McGovern: You lived in Singapore.

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That's why I moved away, is because I

wasn't going to follow you to Singapore.

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Well, yes.

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One of the things I'm very happy about

is that I live as far away as humanly

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possible to get in the continental United

States and stay away from everybody else.

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It wasn't you I wanted to get away from.

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When I moved up here,

Mom lived in Houston.

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And I was like, okay, I'm over it.

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Need to get out and she's

not going to come up here.

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Nora Gibbs: So 15 years ago, I was

given an opportunity to move to

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Singapore to help with an office

we were starting over there.

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I had a lot of customers in Singapore

and it was just kind of a good fit.

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So David and I moved to Singapore with

our daughters who were at that point

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three and five and a half, almost six.

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And we just took off, but I

think we had like three weeks

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to get out of the country.

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But, by the time they said, go, my

company does things very quickly we left.

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And I don't know what happened

with you, but you were in Austin

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and then you decided to move.

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To I think Mark was just looking

for a better job or Mark's job.

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Meagan McGovern: Mark.

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Mark kind of got read the writing on

the wall that his job was going to

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be laid off in the next few months.

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And the job was his company

was just disappearing.

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And so he needed a new job somewhere else.

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And I was sick of Texas.

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I mean, I just, I don't do well with heat.

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I don't do well with Texas and without

you there, you know, what was the point?

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Nora Gibbs: Yeah.

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So we moved to Singapore.

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We were there for, you

know, just shy of two years.

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We came back to Houston eight

years ago at this point.

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I love it.

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I'm in the suburbs of Houston,

outside in Cypress, Texas.

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And I've got a lot of great friends

here that I've had for many years.

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And it's just a really

good fit for my family.

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I wanted stability.

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I wanted my kids to go to the same

middle school, same high school.

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I wanted them to graduate, from a four

year high school without moving around.

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And we kind of knew we had to buckle

down and find somewhere because the

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moving around between Singapore and

California, it was hard on them.

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It wasn't as hard as our childhood,

but it was, there were things that

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I was not happy with when I saw

them struggling with the same types

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of things I did with friendships.

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A lot of kids at that point had had

friendships from kindergarten and.

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Our kids met their friends in

fifth grade and it wasn't the same.

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All of the parents, like the

whole parenting part of it,

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they'd all been friends since

their kids were kindergarten.

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I had that in California because we

met when Charlotte was in kindergarten.

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I met a great group of

women in California.

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I didn't have that, so

it was kind of difficult.

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We decided to hunker down in one place.

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We've been here for eight years

and Charlotte's about to graduate

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from high school from here.

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Meagan McGovern: Well, I think

that's funny talking about this.

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Two things have kind of struck me.

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One is, you and I see

houses very differently.

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I see a house as almost something with

its own personality, its own identity, a

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part of who you are, and I can also see

it as someplace that you live, because

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that's what we always had, was just, hey,

it's a place you hang your hat, it's a

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place you can go to bed, doesn't matter.

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But our house, we have a farmhouse on

10 acres, and farm has been here since

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1920 the house has been here since 1947?

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Nora Gibbs: Is that when you were born?

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Meagan McGovern: Ha ha ha But

although it is kind of funny.

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I think about this all the time

I think you know when mom was 10

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years old this house was built and

That somebody was living here when

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mom was born when dad was born.

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I like having the sense of place I like

having a sense of being rooted, and I

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like having a sense of being part of

something bigger with this house, that

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this house is going to be here for a

long time, and that there's a rhythm here

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with seasons and with growing things and

with, I don't know, nature, all of it.

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It's something that I never had growing

up, where I know where the sun is

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going to come in my window in June.

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And I know where it's going to

come in my window in January.

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And I know that somebody has lived

here for the last hundred years, and

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probably will for the next hundred years.

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I know that there's a creek in my backyard

that, it doesn't have salmon in it now,

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but there was a lady who lived here,

who's, she's 89, and she said that on

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D Day, which I guess is what, 1945?

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She said that they had to go out and

get her father from the creek and tell

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him the news because he was catching

salmon in the creek with a net.

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And That to me is what not,

not everybody has the privilege

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to have a house like this.

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Not everybody wants a house like this.

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There is nothing wrong with liking

having an apartment or a brand new build.

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But for me, that's what having a

house is all about is having a sense

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of continuity in places, stability.

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And when you said that you sought

stability for your kids in school,

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I thought, well, that's where

school isn't a place of stability.

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That's not a place that I would

ever think would be a place

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to get continuity for kids.

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And.

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We homeschooled because I never saw

school as a place that you would

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want to create a life or a culture,

a community out of the school.

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And I think it's interesting

that you see that as your kids.

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Core place of being a core place

of, of, you know, finding home.

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So I think

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Nora Gibbs: that's why the majority of

the population lives where they live.

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Right.

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Because of the schools that

there's onto, and it's a very

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small percentage of the population.

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I'll be, it's grown obviously

in the last 40, 50 years

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homeschooling, but the majority,

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Meagan McGovern: it grew since COVID it's

less than 1 percent of people homeschool.

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The only thing that all

homeschoolers have in common.

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Nora Gibbs: They're weird.

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Meagan McGovern: Yes.

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No.

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Well, yes.

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The only thing all homeschoolers

have in common is that they all

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believe they know better and can do

better than 99 percent of Americans.

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Nora Gibbs: I am 100 percent

sure I cannot homeschool my kids

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better than their teachers can.

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Meagan McGovern: And so people

who are homeschoolers are weird.

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They all believe that they know

better than everybody else and that,

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you know, whether they're doing

it for religious reasons, cultural

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reasons, educational reasons.

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They are all people who

think outside the mainstream.

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So yeah, there's a bunch of weirdos there.

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But I was just going to say, to answer

your, your thing about what, that's

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why people live where they live,

75 percent of Americans, something

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like that, at least two thirds of

Americans live within 40 miles of

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their birth and where their family is.

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Nora Gibbs: I was born in

Bain Isles, California.

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Meagan McGovern: Right, but you don't

have a home in Van Nuys with a group in

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Van Nuys and a family in Van Nuys, and

I don't have, I was born in Westwood,

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but Katie was born, I think, in Ojai.

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Nora Gibbs: Tarzana.

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Meagan McGovern: But none of us

has anything near where we grew up.

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Nora Gibbs: Right.

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Meagan McGovern: And none of us has, in

any of the houses, or any of the places

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we live, none of us has a culture, or

none of us has friends from childhood, or.

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. So anyways, I mean, if that many

people, like 70 percent of Americans,

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live near their mom, mostly for

child care and for raising their

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kids the same way they were raised.

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I think we were, I don't know, kind

of cut out from that whole system.

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And there are a lot of nomads.

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There are a lot of people who are

either army brats or whatever it is.

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Who don't have that system.

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But I think you get cut off from the

culture and community of your family.

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And of having that support

if you decide to have kids.

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One of the things I did learn about

homeschooling and about growing up is

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that the number one factor and whether or

not a kid is bullied is in how long he's

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been a part of that community in that

school and in how well he fits in and

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understands the lingo and the subculture

of that school and that group of friends.

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So, if somebody's been there since

kindergarten with the same group of kids

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and understands what they what music they

listen to, what clothes they listen to.

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But that was one of the

things we did as kids.

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You were very good at it.

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I wasn't.

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At walking into a group of kids at school

and seeing, oh, I can't wear these shoes.

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Yes, I can wear these jeans.

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This is the music we're supposed to like.

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Nora Gibbs: Right.

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I'm still good at that.

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I'm still pretending.

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I'm still really good at pretending

that I know what the flip is going on.

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So, but yeah, no, I agree with that.

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I agree that, it's a lot easier

for kids who've been part of the

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pack since kindergarten to, not

be bullied and not have those bad

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relationships with other friends.

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And yeah, there's going to be,

pockets of frustration and all

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friendships, especially with girls.

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I feel like, but, Yeah.

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It's a lot easier if they have

these relationships and have been in

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school together since kindergarten

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Meagan McGovern: and I think it does.

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It eases the conversations.

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It eases the, it's just

shorthand for you fit in here.

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I also think.

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That it short changes kids, because

then you're either part of our group

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or you're not and you either get us or

you don't and you're part of the people

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who grew up in this area and so you

don't become a citizen of the world.

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You don't become somebody

who can fit in everywhere.

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You don't understand that other people.

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See things a different way.

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Well, that's why you have

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Nora Gibbs: parents like us who beat it

into their head that, this is not normal.

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This is not the way that

normal things happen.

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Meagan McGovern: And so, I mean,

that's one of the reasons that I

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did like homeschooling was because

you can get kids from all over

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the place and everything else.

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And you end up banding together

because of shared interests.

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We, my kids get together, whether it

was because of Pokemon or Minecraft

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or Harry Potter or whatever it was

that they loved at the time, that was.

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How they connected instead of hey, we

were all born in the same zip code.

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Nora Gibbs: Mine like to get together

and bully the homeschool kids.

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Meagan McGovern: That's not hard to do

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Nora Gibbs: That's what you're

supposed to do in the burbs.

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Meagan McGovern: Getting let's

just do like a two sentence thing

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about all right Who are you now

and where do you live and why I

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Nora Gibbs: am a electronic

component distributor.

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I live in Cypress, Texas.

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I have two lovely daughters,

Charlotte and Emily.

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They are 17 and 20, and

I'm married to David.

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We've been married for 24 years this

year, and I'm turning 50 in May.

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Meagan McGovern: Which parts of

your life now would you have said,

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hell yes, I'm very excited about.

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If you could look at your life now

and say, hell yes, I love that.

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And which parts would you say,

Oh, you would be talking about?

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Nora Gibbs: I would be really

excited that I had car insurance.

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I never had a light bill that came

that wasn't bright red that said, we're

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going to disconnect you next month.

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Um, I never had a inkling of us,

you know, long term savings account.

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I never had health insurance.

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I never had, you know, friendships

that I was very proud of that I'd had

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for many years that I had nurtured

and, you know, been intentional with.

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And I never had love like David, like

I'd never had had that type of love

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from someone that I was in love with

that I, until I met David, I had had

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like random boyfriends and, you know,

random guys, but I'd never had someone

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that got me and like understood.

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Meagan McGovern: And what would

you look at now in your life?

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If anything, you don't have to, you

know, disagree with this, but what

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would you look at your life now and say,

boy, I can't imagine myself doing that.

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How did I get stuck in that rat hole?

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Nora Gibbs: Um, I think I don't

think I would have ever anticipated

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having a long term career like this.

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I mean, I've been with my

company now for 28 years.

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Meagan McGovern: It's a long time.

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Nora Gibbs: It's a long time.

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I started in my company when

I was 22 and I don't and I,

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when I started, it was not a.

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It was basically I, my car was

about to be repossessed and

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I needed to make some money

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Meagan McGovern: and

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Nora Gibbs: so I got a job and it

kind of just worked out for me.

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I just kind of quickly rose through the

ranks and, you know, became really good

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at sales and realize that, you know, all

of the snarkiness and personality had to.

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Be thrown into something and they were

gonna pay me for it and pay me well And

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I might as well take advantage of it

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Meagan McGovern: I have a whole lot

of snarkiness and personality and

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I don't get paid for it and that

kind of sucks So well, this is I

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gotta figure out a better way to

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Nora Gibbs: Yeah, you didn't

harness it as well as I did

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Meagan McGovern: Um, okay.

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So for me, two or three sentence summary.

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I'm a writer and I say that even though

I don't get paid very much for writing.

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I occasionally get paid a few

dollars on Facebook and I write some

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newspaper articles here and there.

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But I was a journalist for a long time

and I think of myself as a reporter and

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a journalist and an editor and a writer.

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I'm currently working on

finishing up a book about our

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mother and our life growing up.

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I live on a farm in Western Washington and

we are between the beach and the mountains

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and it is wooded here and lovely and I

love the climate and it never gets above

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85 degrees, which makes me super happy.

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Never gets below 20 degrees,

which also makes me super

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happy and I've got three kids.

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Most of them, two of them are like

grown up, which is kind of weird for me.

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One's out of college, one is in

college, and my youngest one is 15.

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Her name is Scout, and I adore my husband.

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I never thought that I would

like a quiet, decent, kind man.

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Who is steady, honorable,

and just a good guy.

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I thought I wanted way more than that.

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I wanted, you know, Mr.

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Excitement and Mr.

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Fun, and I wanted a poet

and a writer and an artist.

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And Mark can't write a poem to save his

life, and he is not an artist, and he

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does not have anything creative about him.

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And he's exactly what I needed, and not

something I ever would have envisioned.

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Nora Gibbs: I think it's funny that

we both wanted stability and quietness

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and I think that just comes from a,

you know, childhood full of chaos.

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we both were searching for whether

or not we knew it, you know, we were

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searching for stability and quietness,

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Meagan McGovern: right?

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And some part of me says, okay,

if I had had a fantastic childhood

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where I was allowed to explore

and do whatever I wanted and go

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anywhere I wanted, I had stability

and I had that base of stability.

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Would I have married somebody like mark

or would I have married an adventurer?

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Would I have married, you know, an

archeologist and somebody had gone off

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from the world on adventures with them.

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Nora Gibbs: Indiana Jones is not

a real person, just so you know.

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Meagan McGovern: But there

are men who travel the world

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and go off and do cool things.

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And you know what the answer is?

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You've met a man

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Nora Gibbs: with a whip, but

I think that costs seconds.

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Meagan McGovern: A man with a

whip is, you know, and a good

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education is not a bad thing.

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Yeah.

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Um, I think the reality though, and this

is going to sound maybe harsh to Mark

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or harsh to myself, I'm not sure which.

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I am a lot.

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I am really a lot.

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I don't think I could have married

somebody who was a lot because the two

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of us would just be all over the place.

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I don't want to fold my life and my

personality into some man's career

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and chase him around the world.

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And I don't want to, you know,

have him give up his so I could

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be, so he could go with my career.

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And I think it's probably really

better that I get somebody who

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knows what he wants and who's

nice and quiet and and stable.

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Mark has gone along on a

lot of adventures with me.

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And we've ended up in a lot

of places because of my whims

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and I, I think that's okay.

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Nora Gibbs: Well, I mean, the same for

David, if you told him when he married

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me, Hey, we're going to be moving to

Singapore with our two little girls, he'd

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be like, uh, what are you talking about?

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I just want to have some drinks with you.

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Like, I want, can we just

go for Mexican food instead?

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So, yeah, it takes a lot of, I mean,

you know, I think that Mark and

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David are both very similar, but

I think that they're exactly what

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you and I both needed someone to.

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Yes, let us push them to the

point of they're almost going

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to stab us and then we back off.

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Meagan McGovern: Well, and I think it's

also a Interesting that after almost 30

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years for both of our year 25, I used

to worry that I only wanted that because

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of my instability as a child and then

you know Eventually, I'd grow up get

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over my childhood and I'd want something

different and I don't I'm very very happy

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Nora Gibbs: Well, the older I get,

the quieter my life's going to get.

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The smaller my dogs are going to get,

the smaller my purses are going to get,

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and the quieter my life is going to get.

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Meagan McGovern: Oh, not me.

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I am ready for adventure.

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Are you kidding?

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I've been homeschooling for 20 years.

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I'm so ready.

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See, you should have sent your kid

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Nora Gibbs: to public school,

and then you would be like, It'd

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be a totally different life.

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No, I'm good.

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I mean, I plan on traveling a

lot, but I also plan on a lot

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of, you know, quiet time at home.

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Meagan McGovern: No, I want to do

a three month trip to, uh, Scotland

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where I just wander the moors.

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I want to go and explore.

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Can we

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Nora Gibbs: dress up as ghosts and

like, Ooh, and like wander the world?

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Meagan McGovern: I want to do,

I want us to live in Portugal.

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I want to go explore.

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I want to go do all of the

things that I haven't done.

364

:

If you ask me where, when I was

21, where I would have been, this

365

:

is not a farm in Washington state.

366

:

This is not where I would have

ended up, but I'm not disappointed.

367

:

I'm not sad that I ended up here.

368

:

I'm thrilled that I ended up here because.

369

:

I worked hard to get here.

370

:

Nora Gibbs: Well, I think it's also

it kind of goes into how we're alike

371

:

and how we're different also, you

know, a lot of people joke about

372

:

our relationship because, you know,

on paper, we're very different.

373

:

You know, I'm a high driven career

woman living in Houston, Texas.

374

:

Travel for work, blah, blah, blah.

375

:

You're a, stay at home mom

in Northern Washington.

376

:

And I know there's more to you

than that, obviously, but on

377

:

paper, that's what you are, right?

378

:

Meagan McGovern: I'm a writer on paper.

379

:

Nora Gibbs: a paper.

380

:

Meagan McGovern: I have a career.

381

:

You have a career.

382

:

I have three careers.

383

:

Nora Gibbs: I love you, but if you don't

get paid for something, it's a hobby.

384

:

Meagan McGovern: No,

scoutmastering is not a hobby.

385

:

Nora Gibbs: Okay, that's a hobby, bro.

386

:

If you don't get, do you

get paid for scoutmastering?

387

:

No.

388

:

Okay, that's a hobby.

389

:

You have a couple of hobbies that In some

way, you could possibly monetize them.

390

:

You are not monetizing

them at this moment.

391

:

So on paper, I love you very much.

392

:

And I'm very sorry to be the

firm yet voice of reason in your

393

:

head, but those are not careers.

394

:

Meagan McGovern: No, I didn't

say they were careers, but I also

395

:

don't think I'm a stay at home mom.

396

:

Okay.

397

:

I'm

398

:

Nora Gibbs: sorry.

399

:

I labeled you as a stay at home

400

:

Meagan McGovern: mom.

401

:

No, I just, I think stay at home

mom is like, well, 1st, I do think

402

:

it's used as a pejorative and 2ndly.

403

:

I don't even have any kids in my family.

404

:

And I

405

:

Nora Gibbs: don't mean that in a bad way.

406

:

Some of my favorite people in

the world are stay at home moms.

407

:

And it's like the biggest

career you can have.

408

:

I think a stay at home

mom in itself is a career.

409

:

You choose to stay at home.

410

:

So you're not working in an office

or not doing something that, you

411

:

know, brings in financial aid or

financial whatever for your family.

412

:

Meagan McGovern: Yeah.

413

:

Right.

414

:

I mean, and I agree.

415

:

It's just for some reason I get

prickly when somebody says stay

416

:

at home mom, because it implies

that I am staying home for kids.

417

:

My kids are adults at this point.

418

:

I consider myself, you know,

somebody who runs a farm and

419

:

that does bring in income for us.

420

:

So I'm on the board of 2

different nonprofits and I,

421

:

you know, I write and I do.

422

:

I'm working on a book, even

though I know you're a stay

423

:

Nora Gibbs: at home farm.

424

:

Meagan McGovern: You're

a stay at home farmer.

425

:

I'm a farmer.

426

:

How's that?

427

:

If I'm a farmer, writer,

428

:

Nora Gibbs: whatever,

429

:

Meagan McGovern: but yes, we are

very different in what we do.

430

:

And I mean, for instance, just

that one thing, I hate the

431

:

concept of monetizing anything.

432

:

I hate the concept of monetizing.

433

:

I

434

:

Nora Gibbs: can monetize anything.

435

:

Meagan McGovern: What does that even mean?

436

:

Like if an artist who isn't,

who's doing their career is not.

437

:

An artist because they don't make money.

438

:

So I hate all of them.

439

:

It's a hobby.

440

:

Nora Gibbs: Yeah.

441

:

And for me, if you're not

making money, it's a hobby.

442

:

Sorry.

443

:

Okay, should we vote on this?

444

:

Meagan McGovern: No.

445

:

We'll put it below in the comments.

446

:

I mean, that's like saying that somebody

who, somebody who's taking care of

447

:

their aging mother, that's their hobby.

448

:

Because they don't get paid.

449

:

Uh, meh.

450

:

Yeah.

451

:

Nora Gibbs: It's something they do

in their time that is not bringing

452

:

in, it's not, it's not a finance.

453

:

I'm sorry.

454

:

There's

455

:

Meagan McGovern: a difference

between something having value.

456

:

You're

457

:

Nora Gibbs: comparing being an artist

and a stay at home mom to being a

458

:

caregiver for an elderly mother.

459

:

Meagan McGovern: I am saying all

of those three things have value.

460

:

None of them have value.

461

:

None of them are monetized.

462

:

Correct.

463

:

All three of them have value.

464

:

None of them are worth money.

465

:

You are saying that things that have value

are different than things that make money.

466

:

And I am saying, perhaps not anyway.

467

:

yes, we are very, very different.

468

:

So, 1 of the things that I always thought

was interesting about our similarities

469

:

and differences is that mom always

played them up and she liked to, I don't

470

:

think pigeonhole, but she liked to put

each of 1 of us into our categories.

471

:

And I think that does come

from me being the oldest

472

:

1 of the things.

473

:

I always felt in the, the McGovern

girls, the four of us is, and

474

:

you can tell me because I've

never actually asked you this.

475

:

Yes.

476

:

I was always pigeonholed as I was

the smart one, but I don't know.

477

:

I always felt like I was the one who

was very different than everybody else

478

:

and the one who didn't fit in and the

one who was the kind of geeky weird one.

479

:

And I agree.

480

:

Okay.

481

:

Nora Gibbs: I mean, I don't really, I

do think you were the smart one, but I

482

:

think that you kind of took it and I was

joking, obviously, when they said that,

483

:

but I feel like you took on the smart,

awkward role and kind of ran with it.

484

:

And you were okay with it and you were

okay to go be the girl in the corner

485

:

with a book and the glasses and not

participating in conversations unless

486

:

you could sit at the adult table.

487

:

I mean, I remember very specifically

times when the adults were like,

488

:

Megan, this is the adult table.

489

:

You're you're 10, you need to

sit at the kids table and you're

490

:

like, I'm sitting with you.

491

:

I'm an adult.

492

:

And they're like.

493

:

You're not an adult.

494

:

You need to go sit.

495

:

And so I think there were times that

you were very into the role of being

496

:

the awkward girl and you ran with it.

497

:

Meagan McGovern: Well, and

you know what's interesting?

498

:

The reason that I did that, and the

reason that I always wanted to be at

499

:

the adult's table, is because I ran the

household to a large extent, and the

500

:

only way I could know what was going on

with mom is if I heard the conversations

501

:

with other adults, and I would know

whether she was going to get money.

502

:

And I would know whether she was

planning on moving and I would know

503

:

whether or not dad was giving us, um,

money for child support or whether she

504

:

needed the electric bill paid and by

sitting in on the adult conversations,

505

:

I would have that knowledge so that I

could be prepared for what was next.

506

:

So this was a combination of anxiety

need to be prepared and being mom's

507

:

silent partner in raising everybody.

508

:

I was basically her husband.

509

:

And I expected to be informed.

510

:

The same way any partner would

and I know that sounds screwed up,

511

:

but that was really a lot of it

512

:

Nora Gibbs: Well, that makes perfect

sense now, and I've never knew that

513

:

Makes a lot more sense Yeah, I get

it now it was always irritating

514

:

when you were a kid and I was a kid

and I was like Why the fuck does

515

:

she get a sit at the adult table?

516

:

I'm I'm eight.

517

:

I'm cool to come talk to me

So, yeah, I mean, for sure.

518

:

It makes sense when you talk about it

that way, if you needed to be aware

519

:

and that was the only time and that's

why I think a lot of mom's stuff that

520

:

she had, like, you know, there were

always the conversations of what did

521

:

she tell everybody in the family and

522

:

Meagan McGovern: we needed to know what

she told this and what she told this

523

:

so we could keep our story straight.

524

:

Nora Gibbs: Right?

525

:

And it was, you know, and there was a

lot of, and I think we don't talk about

526

:

this a lot that we knew that there were

a lot of things going on in the house.

527

:

That we didn't talk to anyone about.

528

:

You don't talk about this

outside of the family.

529

:

You don't tell Aunt Nora and

Aunt Maggie and all of them

530

:

what your mom is telling you.

531

:

This is an inside conversation for our

little family, the McGovern girls and mom.

532

:

No one else needs to know what's going on.

533

:

Meagan McGovern: They don't

need to know that we're moving.

534

:

They don't need to know that she

didn't pay the rent last month.

535

:

They don't need to

536

:

Nora Gibbs: know we haven't

been to school in three weeks.

537

:

Like, people don't need to know that.

538

:

Meagan McGovern: They don't need to know.

539

:

We have a housekeeper or that the

house that she's looking at that.

540

:

She just borrowed the money

for has a pool, right?

541

:

They don't need to know what she's

talking about leaving the state.

542

:

They certainly don't need to know that.

543

:

She got 3 new credit cards in

the mail last week, you know, or

544

:

that we just went shopping for

clothes with the new credit cards.

545

:

I mean, I can

546

:

Nora Gibbs: remember, like, showing

up in new clothes when, after she

547

:

had borrowed money from people

or whatever on a credit card.

548

:

And.

549

:

You know, being very proud of my new dress

and wanting to show it off and telling

550

:

people look at, yeah, I went shopping

with my mom and having them look at her.

551

:

Like, are you insane?

552

:

You're taking your kids shopping and

you're borrowing money for groceries.

553

:

Like, what is wrong with you?

554

:

And I can remember that look in

their eyes when I was, and then

555

:

I was like, oh, maybe I shouldn't

tell people this kind of stuff.

556

:

And very early on, I realized that there

were things that you said to people and

557

:

things that you kept quiet that were not

to be talked about outside of our home.

558

:

Meagan McGovern: Yeah, I mean, there's

a lot of code switching, you know,

559

:

inside family, outside family, and then

school is a whole different ballgame.

560

:

Oh, you don't have anything.

561

:

Nora Gibbs: Yeah.

562

:

Meagan McGovern: Well, in school

you are showing off the new clothes,

563

:

and you are talking about this

and the pool and the housekeeper.

564

:

So getting back to the weird kid

in the corner, besides that part

565

:

of it, I think, I don't know if I

took that personality and ran with

566

:

it, or if that was my personality.

567

:

It was assigned

568

:

Nora Gibbs: to you as a kid?

569

:

Meagan McGovern: Yeah, well, I

think in a different household, I

570

:

would have been the quiet bookworm.

571

:

Um, but I also, I did not, and I

know I talk about this a lot, the

572

:

neurodivergent thing, or the autism thing.

573

:

I, now that I have three kids who are

all autistic, or on the spectrum, or

574

:

whatever the phrase is you want to use, I

think, I understand a lot more now about

575

:

me and who I was as a kid and there was

none of this diagnosis or anything else.

576

:

I was supposed to be the normal one.

577

:

I was the one who had to

hold everything together.

578

:

I was the one who had to

be, you know, perfect.

579

:

And mom would tell me over and over

again that I was the perfect child.

580

:

And the burden of being perfect when you

are also the weird one is really A lot and

581

:

I never knew what I was supposed to wear.

582

:

I never knew what I was supposed to be and

meanwhile, I'll let you tell me what you

583

:

think the roles for everybody work because

I never knew what I was supposed to do.

584

:

But Morgan and you and Katie all

had roles that were a lot easier.

585

:

I think

586

:

Nora Gibbs: well, so

Katie was the fierce 1.

587

:

she was the 1.

588

:

you don't fuck with and she was

589

:

Meagan McGovern: also.

590

:

Beautiful with that mane of hair.

591

:

She was also

592

:

Nora Gibbs: gorgeous.

593

:

She was a force to be reckoned with.

594

:

Katie was the one that If you needed

something done, like one of those

595

:

people who just get shit done.

596

:

You need something.

597

:

She was your girl.

598

:

She's the girl that she gets shit done.

599

:

You tell her to do something.

600

:

She does it and she does it in

a way that you don't question.

601

:

Oh, that's the way it's

supposed to be done.

602

:

Okay.

603

:

Great.

604

:

Katie said this.

605

:

So I'm not going to question

her because I don't want.

606

:

She's right.

607

:

Obviously she's right.

608

:

And so she was very fierce

and she was beautiful.

609

:

She had this long blonde hair, the

Farrah Fawcett hair, and she was

610

:

modeling in pageants and beauty

pageants when she was 13 years old.

611

:

And she was a gorgeous girl and she was

funny and she was bright and she had a

612

:

soft spot for animals and homeless people.

613

:

And we were always stopping to rescue

animals or rescue, you know, Dropping

614

:

off coats for homeless people.

615

:

And if there was a kid in need at her

school, they'd come over for dinner.

616

:

Like she was always just that girl.

617

:

Meagan McGovern: You were in a fight.

618

:

Katie had your back.

619

:

Oh my God.

620

:

I remember

621

:

Nora Gibbs: there was a time

when I was in, um, Oh God, I

622

:

must've been in second grade.

623

:

And somebody said something

really mean to me.

624

:

And I had a broken arm at the time.

625

:

And.

626

:

I told Katie about it at home that

night and the next day Katie pulled

627

:

that kid out of class and it was a boy

and his name was Ethan and it was like

628

:

in second grade in California and she

like pulled that kid out of class and

629

:

said to him, like in the middle of the

class, she said, Oh, the principal needs

630

:

to see Ethan and like she was a runner

for the office and she pulled this kid

631

:

out of class and she literally like put

her arm up against his neck up against

632

:

the wall and said, if you ever fuck

with my sister again, I will kill you.

633

:

Meagan McGovern: You're kidding me.

634

:

I've never heard that story.

635

:

Nora Gibbs: Oh, my God.

636

:

And it's so funny because Morgan did

the same thing, like, 8 years later in

637

:

another school to another girl who was

bullying me because I was a new kid and

638

:

Morgan did the same thing, but she was the

office assistant, but Morgan called that

639

:

girl at a class and was like, if you ever

fuck with my sister again, I'll kill you.

640

:

Like exact same thing.

641

:

Both of them did that for me,

642

:

Meagan McGovern: but you know,

what's funny, nobody would have ever

643

:

thought of asking me to do that.

644

:

Nora Gibbs: No, no, I

645

:

Meagan McGovern: was your older sister.

646

:

Like that was not my role.

647

:

Nora Gibbs: And that was not your role.

648

:

Your role was, you know,

you're the smart one.

649

:

If I need help with my

homework, you're the one I call.

650

:

And I think that, I think that

a lot of families do that.

651

:

So Katie was the fierce protector.

652

:

Morgan was the pretty one.

653

:

You know, Morgan was gorgeous and

she was, you know, the kind of

654

:

girl that like, you know, casting

directors would stop at a mall and

655

:

say, how do you consider modeling?

656

:

Have you ever been an actress?

657

:

Meagan McGovern: But she was

also the sweet 1 for sure.

658

:

And the 1 who could deflect

any situation with humor.

659

:

She would, if there was a fight, if

there was something bad going on, there

660

:

was something where tensions were high.

661

:

Morgan was the one who would run

into the room flittering like

662

:

a butterfly and do some kind of

comedy sketch scene or something to

663

:

deflect and I, I mean, I feel bad.

664

:

Yeah, great at just turning bad

situations into funny situations.

665

:

Nora Gibbs: Well, and I think

that I was kind of the leftover.

666

:

I, you know, I needed attention.

667

:

I needed a lot of attention because you

guys, you know, the three of you together.

668

:

With mom would suck the

life out of a room, right?

669

:

I mean, like, I would have to have

some kind of I mean, like, literally

670

:

you're flailing in the corner.

671

:

Like, Hey, I'm here too.

672

:

I mean, I remember 1 day I came home and

I wasn't feeling good from school and

673

:

I must have been 8 or 9 years old and I

took a nap after school and I took a nap.

674

:

I think I went to sleep like 2 o'clock.

675

:

And I woke up and it was

like eight o'clock at night.

676

:

Nobody had woken me up for dinner.

677

:

Nobody had said, Hey, Nora, where are you?

678

:

It's bath time.

679

:

You need to get ready for bed.

680

:

Everyone forgot about me.

681

:

And I woke up and I was

thinking, is it the morning?

682

:

What time is it?

683

:

And I was like, it's

eight o'clock at night.

684

:

And I went into the living room

or the dining room and I was like.

685

:

Where is everybody?

686

:

They're like, Oh, we forgot you were here.

687

:

And I'm like, what the fuck?

688

:

You know, like you guys literally

just, everyone just forgot about me.

689

:

So I think that was one of the turning

points where I made sure people

690

:

didn't forget I was in the room again.

691

:

You know, you're forgetting, you

miss a meal once in my life and I'm

692

:

like, Hey, so you know, I think that

I kind of became the rest of it.

693

:

And it's funny, I sent something to

Emily the other day and it said I

694

:

was a really weird looking kid so

I had to be funny and then I was

695

:

hot in my 20s so now I'm perfect.

696

:

And Emily's like, that's me

and I was like, it's me too.

697

:

So I was really weird looking and

then I had like a glow up and got

698

:

really cute when I was like, you

know, 17 to like, obviously now.

699

:

And, so like I developed that personality

where you have to be funny to deflect

700

:

humor and I'm a really good negotiator.

701

:

I'm really good at diffusing

situations as well.

702

:

And I think it's because.

703

:

You guys forgot about me

at dinner that one time.

704

:

Meagan McGovern: Well, I think too,

there was a divide and it's funny.

705

:

There isn't a lot of age difference

between Katie and Morgan.

706

:

It was the

707

:

Nora Gibbs: big kids and

little kids, the big girls.

708

:

Yeah.

709

:

It

710

:

Meagan McGovern: was you, you two were

the little ones and Katie and I were in

711

:

charge of the little ones all the time.

712

:

And so, but until I was say, 12,

it was Katie and I were 10 and 12.

713

:

We were the big ones.

714

:

We helped you in and out of cars.

715

:

We helped you with dinner.

716

:

We helped you with food.

717

:

We helped you with homework.

718

:

We helped you with everything.

719

:

And, sometimes Katie was

over it and didn't help.

720

:

And other, but Katie did a lot.

721

:

Katie did the stuff like

dishes and the hard work.

722

:

And I never did.

723

:

Katie cleaned

724

:

Nora Gibbs: a lot.

725

:

Katie was very into having a

house that was presentable.

726

:

Meagan McGovern: She was very.

727

:

intent about making sure that mom

looked good, that we all looked

728

:

good, that she could have a place for

friends to come over and that nobody

729

:

would know what the secrets were.

730

:

And to some degree, one of the things

that stood out to me as you being

731

:

different than the rest of us was,

and I don't know if this is your

732

:

personality or if this is a reaction to

everything, was that you liked your stuff.

733

:

I still like, yeah, I know, but you

like your stuff in order organized,

734

:

laid out where you could see it and you

didn't want other people to touch it.

735

:

And same Morgan and I, especially

Katie was a little bit like, you

736

:

know, she really liked her clothes

and stuff, but Morgan and I had a

737

:

sense that everything was communal.

738

:

We were 1, big, happy family clothes

were closed stuff with stuff.

739

:

You grabbed a shirt out of the pile.

740

:

If you could have on the floor, if

you could avoid the cat piss shirt and

741

:

you wore what you wanted to wear and.

742

:

It didn't matter whose was

whose, but you and Katie had

743

:

a sense of this shirt is mine.

744

:

I picked it out.

745

:

I want to look a certain way.

746

:

Don't touch my stuff.

747

:

And Morgan and I were like, look,

there's no way to tell whose is who.

748

:

I don't even understand.

749

:

Nora Gibbs: Oh, and I could tell

you the make model size, where I

750

:

bought it, how much I paid for it,

every detail about that shirt and

751

:

why I wanted that particular shirt.

752

:

Meagan McGovern: And I'd be like, I don't

even know what room I keep my clothes in.

753

:

I'm grabbing something out of the

clean laundry or off the floor.

754

:

I don't know what you're talking about.

755

:

This is your stuff.

756

:

Nora Gibbs: Yeah.

757

:

Meagan McGovern: And 1 of the thing

I was thinking about with these

758

:

labels, and I know all families.

759

:

To some degree label kids,

and some kids like to label

760

:

themselves because it gets you.

761

:

You know, if you're the sports

kid, your parents are going to

762

:

put more energy into sports.

763

:

If you're the smart one, your

parents are going to pay more

764

:

attention to your homework.

765

:

If you're the funny one, you get

away with, with other things.

766

:

I think it does a

disservice in a lot of ways.

767

:

Like by labeling me the smart

one, that meant Katie wasn't.

768

:

And Katie was bright.

769

:

Katie was bright.

770

:

Katie still is bright.

771

:

And, Sander has, a learning

disability with reading.

772

:

I think it's a form of

dyslexia and dysgraphia.

773

:

Sander's one of the most

brilliant kids I know.

774

:

And it took me a long time, I think

because we were raised by mom, to

775

:

understand that being bright And

having a learning disability are not

776

:

incompatible that you can be as smart as

a whip and have a learning disability.

777

:

That means that it is harder for

you to read or something else.

778

:

It is very much like, you know,

being blind doesn't mean you're dumb.

779

:

It means you can't see and

having a learning disability

780

:

doesn't mean you can't read.

781

:

You can't understand words.

782

:

It means you need another way

around to get to the same point.

783

:

And I think Katie had that.

784

:

I think Katie had a reading disability.

785

:

Katie.

786

:

And at one of the schools she went to

they identified it and said she had it

787

:

and mom just kind of dismissed it and

that there are not very many things I

788

:

resent mom for there are not a lot of

things that I'm like, you know, that

789

:

made her a shitty human, but this was

one of them that she was very much

790

:

of the opinion of you're the smarter.

791

:

You're not you're quick or you're not.

792

:

And she valued quick wit.

793

:

And being sharp.

794

:

Nora Gibbs: That's why she liked me.

795

:

Meagan McGovern: Probably.

796

:

Nora Gibbs: I mean, like, because

I can, you, you want to come back?

797

:

I'm your girl.

798

:

Meagan McGovern: Right.

799

:

And she loved Katie and adored Katie

and had her as her sidekick because

800

:

Katie was funny and loyal and fierce.

801

:

But there was an undercurrent

to, you're not a reader.

802

:

And so I'm kind of dismissing that

part of you and dismissed part

803

:

of me because I wasn't pretty.

804

:

She kind of, you know, was very

unkind to me because I wasn't pretty

805

:

in the traditional sense at all.

806

:

But she was also unkind to Katie

because Katie wasn't the smart one.

807

:

And I think giving your kids these

labels and then pigeonholing them

808

:

is really unfair to the kids.

809

:

Nora Gibbs: It's funny that, you know,

out of all the things we've talked about,

810

:

like with mom and all of the scams and

hurting people and blah, blah, blah,

811

:

we're like, You shouldn't have labeled us.

812

:

It's like the 1 thing that we're not

irritated with, like, that's what

813

:

fucked us up is you labeled us versus,

hey, how about teaching us to scam

814

:

people from the doctor's office?

815

:

Right?

816

:

How about teaching people,

teaching us how to do, you know,

817

:

insurance fraud as kids, but no,

you told me that I wasn't a reader.

818

:

So you didn't love me

as much as my sister.

819

:

Meagan McGovern: But I think that's

what parenting comes down to.

820

:

Isn't it?

821

:

I mean, that's what I'm figuring out.

822

:

There

823

:

Nora Gibbs: are things that

my kids talk about with my

824

:

parenting that I'm like, really?

825

:

That's your, that's the hill

you're going to die on with me?

826

:

Like that I didn't do X when you

were a kid, that I let, that I let

827

:

you sign up for too many sports

and didn't make you stick to one.

828

:

Emily said that to me

a couple of years ago.

829

:

You let me quit a sport.

830

:

And I should have stayed for up, sign up

for the whole 1 and not, and not, quit.

831

:

And I'm like, you refuse to go.

832

:

What am I supposed to do?

833

:

Meagan McGovern: You know,

what scout yells at me for

834

:

making her stick with scouts.

835

:

So literally named for it, right?

836

:

Exactly.

837

:

And also, this is 1 of the

hardest parts of parenting.

838

:

And, and I do think that kids

end up thinking about their

839

:

childhood in the terms of the

way their parents made them feel.

840

:

Did they feel loved?

841

:

Did they feel supported?

842

:

Did they feel seen for who they were?

843

:

And whether we, and

whether they felt safe.

844

:

And so no, mom didn't make us feel safe.

845

:

And yet she did make us feel safe.

846

:

But also, I think, yes, whether we

were seen in her, she made us feel

847

:

Nora Gibbs: safe in that

we were all in it together.

848

:

Meagan McGovern: Yeah, as long

as we had her, we were safe.

849

:

Nora Gibbs: We were all in it

together and just don't talk about

850

:

anything happening with anybody else.

851

:

So,

852

:

Meagan McGovern: right.

853

:

And we weren't, but in the grand

scheme of the world, were we safe?

854

:

I don't know.

855

:

Nora Gibbs: Yeah,

856

:

Meagan McGovern: but I do

think that you're right.

857

:

That to some degree, that's what

parenting is all about is that is

858

:

what kids resent their parents for.

859

:

And one of the hardest things is, to

know when to tell your kids to quit

860

:

something and to know when to tell

your kids to stick with something.

861

:

Nora Gibbs: I ask my friends who

have like elite athlete kids all

862

:

the time, like, how did you know?

863

:

That this kid would be a expert lacrosse

player versus an expert violinist.

864

:

How did you know that this kid was

going to be, you know, captain of

865

:

the soccer team versus whatever?

866

:

And it's, you know, most 90 percent of

the people that you talk to about this

867

:

are going to say, there was the hardest

thing we ever had to do as a family.

868

:

You know, cause it's, it's hard to have

kids that excel at one certain thing that

869

:

you have to recognize that when they're

kindergarten, when they're five years

870

:

old, that this is something this kid's

going to be really good at as an athlete.

871

:

Meagan McGovern: But they're not

good at it at five years old.

872

:

That's the thing.

873

:

So, I mean, like, here's the thing.

874

:

Sander hated violin, hated it.

875

:

And Sora did too.

876

:

Sawyer never got good at violin.

877

:

No matter how much he practiced,

he never got good at it.

878

:

And I kept saying, well,

let's stick with it.

879

:

Let's stick with it.

880

:

Let's stick with it.

881

:

And then Sander took it and

hated every minute of it.

882

:

And it is hard to know whether

you say, hey, you know what?

883

:

Not every kid's cut out to be a violinist.

884

:

If they hate it, let them quit.

885

:

Or are they gonna resent me?

886

:

When they're 20 because I never

made them learn an instrument.

887

:

Nora Gibbs: I'm still mad at mom

for letting me quit piano lessons

888

:

I don't know how to play the piano.

889

:

Meagan McGovern: I can play heart and

soul But if somebody had forced you

890

:

to take piano lessons when you hated

it, I would have stopped them, right?

891

:

I don't know and I go back and forth

over this and this is really one

892

:

of the hardest things like Scout

is not a fan of Scouts and Both

893

:

of her brothers were Eagle Scouts.

894

:

Her father was an Eagle Scout.

895

:

This is important to our family.

896

:

Is this something where we are

pushing our values, our ideals,

897

:

and our beliefs onto her?

898

:

Nora Gibbs: Yes.

899

:

Meagan McGovern: Like forcing her

to go to a, a church she doesn't

900

:

wanna go to and doesn't believe in?

901

:

Or is this something where,

Hey kid, this is who we are.

902

:

This is what we do.

903

:

It's not gonna kill you.

904

:

This is the kind of thing

where you can push, you, suck

905

:

it up, suck it up, and do it.

906

:

And.

907

:

I mean, to me, getting Eagle

Scout is no different than

908

:

getting a high school diploma.

909

:

It's one of the things that's

expected in our family.

910

:

And I'm sorry if you don't like it, but

you have to get a high school diploma.

911

:

There's different ways to do it.

912

:

We can make it easier for you.

913

:

We're not going to make you do anything.

914

:

That's morally reprehensible.

915

:

Some things you just got to suck it up.

916

:

But also, do you end up with a kid

who hates your guts because you made

917

:

them do things they didn't want to do?

918

:

Nora Gibbs: Well, I let Charlotte

quit Scout in 8th grade.

919

:

There you go.

920

:

She was a Scout up until 8th grade.

921

:

And, you know, her Scout troop

still stuck together after she left.

922

:

And I'm friends with the

leader still to this day.

923

:

Meagan McGovern: And also, I mean,

but yeah, but we don't do sports.

924

:

Everybody's got their thing in their

family that you do in Charlotte

925

:

stuck with sports, you know, but yes,

you have to decide for your kids.

926

:

Are you a scout family or

are you a sports family?

927

:

Are you a book family or are you

a go hiking on weekends family?

928

:

And it's really hard to decide for your

kids, especially if you've got a scouting

929

:

kid born into a book family or vice versa.

930

:

Nora Gibbs: And then you throw a

pandemic in the middle of their

931

:

freshman year in high school

and that just screws it all up.

932

:

Meagan McGovern: Oh yeah, yeah.

933

:

Sandra was on the rowing team when

the pandemic hit and he loved it.

934

:

He was in great shape and

he was doing really well.

935

:

And then he never went back afterward.

936

:

And I don't know if that would have

been something he loved and went to

937

:

school for and ended up doing for

the rest of his life, or who knows,

938

:

all right, so I think we have wrapped

up pretty much everything today about

939

:

who we are, how we got here, how

different we are, and how alike we are.

940

:

Nora Gibbs: If you're still

listening, I, I thank you.

941

:

I mean, I'm can't believe anyone's

listening to this, but I appreciate it.

942

:

I

943

:

Meagan McGovern: think it's kind of

a neat thing, though, for people who

944

:

did grow up in a different family.

945

:

I think this resonates with

people because, you know,

946

:

parents are always hard.

947

:

Families are always hard.

948

:

Yeah.

949

:

And coming from a place

that's a little different.

950

:

Is a little different.

951

:

Okay.

952

:

Well, okay.

953

:

It's nice to hear from other people.

954

:

Nora Gibbs: It is.

955

:

And I think it's nice to show that, my

whole thing with why we wanted to, why

956

:

I want to do the podcast is to show that

you can have a, extraordinarily chaotic

957

:

childhood and still grow up to be normal.

958

:

Ish.

959

:

Yeah.

960

:

Meagan McGovern: And I

think that it's okay.

961

:

I don't know.

962

:

I don't want to say this.

963

:

I think it's also okay.

964

:

If you have an extraordinarily

chaotic childhood.

965

:

And you still struggle because

not everybody comes out of it

966

:

Nora Gibbs: well, and I

struggle with it for sure.

967

:

I just, you know, and I'm sure we'll

get to the things I still struggle with.

968

:

But, yeah, I mean, you asked

me to balance a checkbook.

969

:

Nope.

970

:

I'm not your girl.

971

:

You asked me to do like, hardcore math.

972

:

Nope.

973

:

Not your girl.

974

:

I can do easy math.

975

:

Meagan McGovern: I can, you know what?

976

:

But if there's a car accident and

you and I walk up on the scene.

977

:

I will.

978

:

People you want.

979

:

Nora Gibbs: Yeah.

980

:

You're

981

:

Meagan McGovern: the

people you want there.

982

:

Nora Gibbs: You're in a bar and

trying to get away from some guy.

983

:

I'm your girl.

984

:

You, you know, someone's trying

to, you know, pull one over on you.

985

:

You want me in that situation?

986

:

You need to negotiate a $15 million deal.

987

:

Come on, call me somebody.

988

:

Meagan McGovern: If, I

mean, if somebody says hey.

989

:

I can't tell if this is a scam or not.

990

:

Yeah.

991

:

Yes.

992

:

All right.

993

:

Well, as always, thank you

for listening to Forever Wild.

994

:

Nora Gibbs: If you enjoyed our podcast,

let us know, leave us a review.

995

:

Find Megan on Facebook or share it

with someone who loves a good story.

996

:

Meagan McGovern: And we

would love to hear from you.

997

:

The reason we did this episode today

was because people were asking these

998

:

questions, and I think it was kind of

a fun, fascinating thing to talk about.

999

:

So send us your stories,

questions, thoughts.

:

00:46:19,785 --> 00:46:22,235

Let us know what resonates and

what you'd like to hear more about.

:

00:46:22,815 --> 00:46:24,345

Nora Gibbs: Until next time, stay wild.

:

00:46:25,165 --> 00:46:25,655

Bye.

:

00:46:25,825 --> 00:46:26,385

Bye.

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About the Podcast

Forever Wild
Stories from the McGovern Girls
Forever Wild is a memoir podcast about four sisters, a con artist mother, and a childhood spent on the run. From mafia bars to game shows, mental hospitals to Australia, it’s a story of survival, chaos, and the search for home. Hosted by sisters Meagan McGovern and Nora Gibbs, this deeply personal series blends dark humor, nostalgia, and raw honesty in a journey you won’t forget.

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Meagan McGovern