Episode 6

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Published on:

31st Mar 2025

The Oregon Detour: Poverty, Privilege, and a Car Full of Animals

Show Notes: Episode 6 – The Oregon Detour

This week, Meagan and Nora head back to 1985 and the family’s move to a remote house in the woods of southern Oregon. What starts as a beautiful new beginning quickly turns into one of the most chaotic and difficult chapters of their lives.

In this episode:

  • Life lately: prom dresses, graduation plans, and launching adult kids
  • Meagan tells the story of driving to Oregon at 16 with a chicken, kittens, a dog, two teenagers she barely knew, and a ticket for going 88 mph
  • Living in a stunning house with no money, no plan, and no adult supervision
  • Losing pets to the Oregon wilderness—and what those losses still mean
  • What it's like to be the kid holding everything together while the adults fall apart
  • A staged car crash, insurance money, and moral gray areas
  • One magical memory: the Ashland Shakespeare Festival and a woman in a unicorn costume
  • How race, privilege, and poverty collided in their family’s story
  • The return to LA, motel living, and the Challenger explosion

Themes:

  • The invisible weight of being “the responsible one”
  • The ways white privilege protected their mother—and how that legacy shows up now
  • Survival, sibling loyalty, and the cost of keeping secrets
  • What it means to look back on these stories with love, anger, and clarity

Content note: This episode includes discussion of poverty, food insecurity, pet loss, and an insurance scam. There is also honest reflection on the role of white privilege in the family's story.

Transcript
Meagan McGovern:

Hi, welcome to Forever Wild, a podcast about family memory and

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the stories that shape who we become.

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I'm Megan McGovern, the

oldest of Four Sisters,

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Nora Gibbs: and I'm Nora Gibbs,

the smartest of the four sisters.

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Meagan McGovern: Right.

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Nora Gibbs: Together we're sharing our

very growing up with an actor father,

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a mother who didn't think the rules

applied to her, at least financially

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and a childhood full of chaos,

adventure, and unforgettable moments.

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Meagan McGovern: You know, I wasn't

really okay with labels until like the

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whole smartest thing, so forget it.

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Um, each episode we tell stories about

our childhood and we dive deep into how

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we're shaped by our past and how siblings

who come from the very same family can

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see their past in very different ways.

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Nora Gibbs: Thank you for joining us.

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This is forever Wild.

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Meagan McGovern: Okay, so Nora had

an idea, which I think is kind of

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fun, um, to talk about what we're

doing in our lives every week so

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that you can kind of see where we

are now versus where we were then.

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So Nora, why don't you start

and tell me what you're up to.

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Nora Gibbs: Well, um, so this

week it's a normal week for me.

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I work from home, I work remotely.

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And it's one of those weeks where like the

most exciting thing that I do is figure

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out what I'm having for lunch at home.

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Today I had a great,

like, Turkey on sandwich.

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It was some dishes, um, we're doing

something that David introduced me to.

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It's called a budget for the

Family, which is horrifically awful.

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Not a big fan of that.

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And, you know, I'm working, we have, you

know, we're planning graduation parties.

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Charlotte's graduating in a couple

of weeks, couple months in May.

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And we're planning graduation

parties, we're planning prom

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house, we're planning prom hair.

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It's all of the exciting things

that go along with having a senior.

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So that's the exciting life in my hu

in my life in Houston, Texas this week.

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All the normal things I never

thought I would get to experience.

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Meagan McGovern: Well, I've had

three seniors so far and we've never

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done prom hair or prom dresses.

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Um, you've never done prom

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hair?

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Meagan McGovern: Well, no.

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Got three boys.

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They've never done prom hair,

so they, I mean, they pro

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Nora Gibbs: prom hair is so fun.

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Like watching Charlotte and her friends

like experiment with what they're gonna

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do and like going through the tiktoks and

the Instagrams and the pictures and what

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do you think of this with this dress?

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And it's just, it's such a fun

thing that I never in a million

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years would've been like something

that I would be excited about.

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But it's really fun.

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I mean, considering my dress for prom

was something that little Maggie had sent

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me in the mail to Hilton Head and I did

my own hair and I did my own makeup, you

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know, the big black eyeliner on top and

like the nude lipstick with a red dress.

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That was too big for me

'cause her boobs were so much

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bigger than mine at that time.

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And, um, that was my prom dress.

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Meagan McGovern: Well, from my prom,

I went to a hairdresser and I had them

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put my hair up into a French twist.

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And I got black sequins put onto the back

of my hair with glue, a big black dress.

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So I don't know why I got a prom

and a prom dress and a French

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twist and all that and you didn't.

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But, um, I don't know man.

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Um,

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Nora Gibbs: my prom

life was very different.

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I was living on the Hilton

head with Katie and her.

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Meagan McGovern: Oh well yeah.

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At that time.

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Nora Gibbs: Yeah.

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I mean six years is big difference.

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Yeah, it was a big

difference in that time.

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Meagan McGovern: And the other

thing is that, uh, with my

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boys, we were just such geeks.

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So by the time my kids were seniors

in high school, they had finished

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two years of community college

and they were kind of ready for

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college and gonna take a gap year.

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And they were not into the whole senior

year thing or prom or any of that.

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And I mean, they went out and

they did step with their friends.

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And we had a graduation party for

both of them, but there was no prom.

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So anyway.

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And your prom

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Nora Gibbs: house where you

like rent a house for 25 kids.

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Meagan McGovern: Oh my God.

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Never on a

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Nora Gibbs: lake.

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And you guys all like, oh no.

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Yeah, it's gonna be so fun.

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Nope, none

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Meagan McGovern: of that.

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So we this, what are we doing this week?

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Um, it's a regular week here.

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My oldest Sawyer is getting ready

to move cross country for a job.

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He's gonna be a park ranger in Kentucky

for the summer at the Abraham Lincoln

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birthplace, which kind of is interesting.

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It's the old log cabin where you

hear the stories about Abraham

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Lincoln being born in a log cabin.

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He's gonna be there.

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Nora Gibbs: So I saw you post something

about that, and I thought Abraham

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Lincoln was born in like Illinois.

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Meagan McGovern: So did I post a nice

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Nora Gibbs: way?

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Sometimes you post a lot.

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I don't read.

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Meagan McGovern: No.

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Well, when Sawers said, I'm going to

go to Abraham Lincoln birthplace and

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it's in Kentucky, I said, no, it's not.

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It's in Illinois.

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And he is like, no, I, I

know who offered to hire me.

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They're in Kentucky.

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And I said, Sawyer, Illinois

is the land of Lincoln.

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It's a scam.

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You're being scammed.

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Well, apparently Illinois has a better

marketing campaign that that's where

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he, where Lincoln lived and worked

as a lawyer, but he also lived in.

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Tennessee and Kentucky and he was only

in Kentucky for a couple of like until

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he was eight, but the log cabin was

there and his whole family's was there.

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So I don't know.

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Anyway, I'm gonna go out with him in April

to help him get set up because again,

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this is something different on your end.

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So is 24 and he's never had a car, so

good lord he's gonna go buy a car when he

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gets there and he is gonna be a big deal.

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He's never

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had his own car?

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Meagan McGovern: No, he's never had a car.

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Huh.

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Okay.

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How old were your kids when they got cars?

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Nora Gibbs: Uh, Charlotte was 15

when she got her car and she, Emily

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was actually almost 17 because she

was not, you know, it was after the

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pandemic and she was just not a big

fan of like getting out there driving.

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But yeah, Charlotte was raring to go

from the time she was 13 and we just

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happened to get my mother-in-law's car.

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So it worked out Well.

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Meagan McGovern: No, we just, we've

always, neither one of them, neither

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one of the boys needed a car in college.

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One was because it was in a small

town in the middle of nowhere.

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Yeah.

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And there was no place to drive to.

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Huh.

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And the other one is in Washington,

DC where he can get around everywhere.

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And so since they didn't need cars

for college, there was no point

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in buying them one or helping

them get a car in, in high school.

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Makes sense.

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Um, and so it, this, this never happened

and So's been outta college two years

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now and he hasn't had enough steady

work to justify having a car payment.

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And I don't wanna pay his car payment

for him and I don't want to, I don't have

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$10,000 to give him for a car or whatever.

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So he just hasn't had one.

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Nora Gibbs: I'd like to revisit me

talking about a budget and why I am

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poor because my children have cars

that I paid for in cash in months.

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Exactly.

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No money.

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So

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Meagan McGovern: I mean, we're gonna go

get him a car and it's kind of a big deal.

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We're gonna fly down there together

and then he's gonna have a car

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and then we get to drive back.

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'cause the job you can only work for six

months at a time for the park service.

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And so the job will have

to be over in October.

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Then we get to drive back from

Kentucky and I get to do a road

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trip, which will be really fun.

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Nora Gibbs: Huh.

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Okay.

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Not to get you off track.

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Why can you only work six

months for the Park Service

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Meagan McGovern: because it's

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Nora Gibbs: an educational

version of Federal?

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Well, today, first of

all, yes it is place.

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It's um,

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' Meagan McGovern: cause it's

seasonal work and there are two

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kinds of federal government jobs.

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And the one that is getting cut everywhere

is the real federal government jobs that

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are usually fantastic middle class incomes

that have, you know, decent benefits.

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And you can buy a house

and you can live somewhere.

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And that is kind of the staple

of a lot of middle class families

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is a good government job.

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But the ones that are seasonal, where

you just work at Yellowstone as a park

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ranger for six months or whatever,

um, it's kind of like the equivalent

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of you don't get insurance unless

you hit 32 hours a week or something.

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This is the same thing where you're

not an official federal employee unless

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you work more than six months a year.

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So you can only work six months a

year as a Park Ranger job, but you

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can do it every year for six months.

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Then you find something

else to do in the winter.

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So I don't know what he's

gonna do this winter.

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He's obviously eventually looking

for like a real job, but this

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is kind of fun in the meantime.

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Nora Gibbs: Alright, well I

like that little weekly catch.

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Thank you for humoring me.

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And I hope that that was interesting to

the two people who listen to this one,

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my, my friend Nicole in California.

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So thank you.

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Appreciate that.

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Meagan McGovern: Um, I have somebody who

said she listens to this on the treadmill

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because it keeps her from having panic

attacks with everything that's going on.

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And I'm like, I don't know

that I'm the voice of reason.

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Run, run, run.

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You can do it, you can do it.

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I don't know.

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I'm the person who, you know, calms

you after a panic attack and attack's.

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Funny.

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Oh God, we're gonna induce

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panic attacks.

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Meagan McGovern: Well, Sawyer said

the other day, he's like, you are

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exactly the kind of person that

people turn to in a, in a crisis.

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I'm like, I don't know what

you're talking about, dude.

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This is, I don't know any

more than anybody else.

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Nora Gibbs: Depends on the crisis.

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Meagan McGovern: Um, so anyway, I

think we should go back to storytelling

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today a little bit and go back

to where we were in our story.

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And what

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Nora Gibbs: they want.

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Meagan McGovern: When we last left you, we

were in our new house that we had bought

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with money from the Game Show and we, this

was from:

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It was the longest we ever lived

in one house when I was a kid.

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And we moved in when I was in 10th

grade and we moved out right before

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the beginning of my senior year.

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And this was the house Nora had

talked about how we fixed it all up

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and it was, it was a cool house and

it was in Northridge, California.

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Now I'm sure it's a three

or $4 million house.

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Um, right in the middle of a great

neighborhood in Ally, huge big houses

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and just a really neat place to live.

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And we were pretty happy there.

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I mean, do you remember that house?

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Nora Gibbs: I love that house that,

out of all the houses I've ever

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lived in, that was my favorite house.

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I love that house.

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I was.

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So when we moved in there in 1985,

I guess when we left there I was 10.

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So I moved there from the time I

was seven or eight till I was 10.

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The girl next door was my best friend.

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She was a couple years older than me.

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She went to La Baptist School.

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She was like my best friend.

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It was just a really good place.

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Like it was great for me to be around

them because they were so stable.

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Like her mom was best friends

with a net ella and that's

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sweet.

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Nora Gibbs: So like the most traditional

normal family, they were Christian,

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they went to church every Sunday.

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Her dad was just the

nicest guy in the world.

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Mark, Hey Mark, hey Michelle.

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Um, love them.

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To love them.

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Still talk to them.

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Still texts on with Michelle on

Facebook and you know, it's just,

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I just, I adore them and it was

just a really good time for me.

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Meagan McGovern: It's funny because,

you know, this whole thing started

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when we talk about the house fire

and about, you know, my dad leaving,

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our dad leaving and everything.

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That was when I was 10.

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And I have such kind of vague memories

of that time and it's all kind of

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fuzzy and I don't really, my memories

don't become really clear till.

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You know, 13, 14, 15 and I

think of, you know, this house

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and you only being 10 there.

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I mean, you were still little.

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Nora Gibbs: Yeah, I was little, but

I was like a very, um, early bloomer.

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Like this is the house where I started

smelling bad when I didn't wear deodorant.

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Meagan McGovern: Okay.

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This is the

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Nora Gibbs: house where I got my

first, um, hair in my another region

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that one of Katie's friend Tyra, that

we're gonna talk about, convinced me

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that there was something wrong with

me and I needed to go to the doctor.

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'cause it was not normal

to have hair down there.

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Meagan McGovern: What the hell?

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She older than How did

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Nora Gibbs: she, she was choking with me.

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She was like messing with us.

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Meagan McGovern: Oh

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Nora Gibbs: yeah.

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She was joking with me and trying to,

with me a panic attack and I forgot.

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I thought maybe

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Meagan McGovern: she didn't have

any hair down there or something.

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I was like, I didn't know that

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Nora Gibbs: for about 30 minutes she was,

she and Katie went really hardcore on me.

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And then when the point when I

was like hysterically sobbing in

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the corner, they're like, Nora,

we're just messing with you.

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It's fine.

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It's normal.

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It's a perfectly normal

thing that happens.

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It's puberty's happening.

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Meagan McGovern: See, this is the

thing I would've, I'm surprised

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you didn't come to me with, 'cause

I would've been like, look, kids,

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Nora Gibbs: this is where I remember

we had that weird hot tub and like

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Katie and Tyra like taught me how

to shave my legs in the hot tub.

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And again, back to Tricia and her mom next

door, like I remember walking by her mom

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one day, it was in the middle of summer

and I must have s smelled like a goat.

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'cause I walked by and she's like, someone

forgot to put their deodorant on today.

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And I was like, I didn't

know I was supposed to wear

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deodorant and I'm only 10.

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Like I had no, I Mom had never, mom never

talked to us about that kind of stuff.

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Mom's personal hygiene at that point

was not something that one that

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any of us would wanna replicate.

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Right?

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Like she was in a really bad situation

at that point, like mentally.

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And she was depressed.

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You know, I think there was a

lot of, this is the first time

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I remember her ever being like.

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In her bed not getting out or being

like in a steam nightgown and not

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getting out of bed for a long time,

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Meagan McGovern: not showering

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Nora Gibbs: on a daily basis.

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Um, I remember

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Meagan McGovern: not washing, not

washing clothes, not doing dishes right.

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All

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Nora Gibbs: of that.

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This is when like if you wanted

clean clothes in our house, you

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had to wash your own clothes, put

'em in the washer in the dryer.

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Don't leave it alone because someone

will throw it on the floor, on a

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cattle, piss on it, and then you'll

go to school smelling like cat piss.

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Right.

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So it's really like every

man, every man for themselves.

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Meagan McGovern: But if you waited

long enough, mom hired a housekeeper

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and a landscaper and they moved

in with us for a while, and then

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they, and then they laundry.

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Right,

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Nora Gibbs: right.

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But I was always the kind of like, I know

what I wanna wear to school tomorrow.

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I have to have my perfect outfit out.

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Like I need to wash it.

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And I started doing laundry.

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I mean, my own laundry.

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I think when I was like eight

years old or else I wouldn't

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have clean clothes, you know?

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Meagan McGovern: Yeah.

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I just didn't have clean clothes

and I didn't know about deodorant.

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And I never, somehow I

missed all of those memos.

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I mean, I think finally when

I was in 10th or 11th grade.

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There were a couple of girls I, I

always remember one girl that I went

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to school with, her name was Heather.

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And it's kind of funny.

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I am not good at direct,

honest communication.

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And it's something that I think

that we should be taught in schools.

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I wish everybody could go up to

somebody and say, Hey, you smell bad.

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You need to fix it.

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That's why people don't

wanna hang out with you.

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Instead of what we do now,

which is dance around people.

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But the girl came up to me and she

said, Hey, I really like you and I

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wanna be friends with you, but you

wear the same jeans every day and the

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other kids are all talking about it.

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And they say that you wear the same

jeans like three or four times a week.

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And I just wanna know why that is and

what's going on so that like I can tell

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them so that they don't make fun of you.

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And so I can be friends with you.

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Well, I love her.

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Good for her.

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Meagan McGovern: Hey, well I know it

was kind of, I dunno if she was that

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direct about it, but it was something

very clear about, Hey, the other

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kids are talking about your genes.

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Why don't you fix it?

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So that.

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Anyway, I thought it

was a really neat thing.

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And ever since then when I, I

see a kid who is on the verge

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of being on the out group.

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I mean, I can't go up to kids and say

that, but I, I think it's a good thing

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to say to somebody that, Hey, you know,

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Nora Gibbs: can you just like write

'em a note and slip in their pocket?

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Meagan McGovern: Well, and my kids hate

it because I am this direct, but I will

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walk up to the boys and say, you stink.

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Go, you stink.

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They're like, what the hell?

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You can't, yes, I can go take

a shower if, if I can smell it.

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Other people can too.

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Your hair is greasy.

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Yeah, go take a shower.

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And they don't like it.

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But I think it's better than I tell

them that, than that somebody else does.

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I

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Nora Gibbs: think it's harder with girls

to have those conversations and I, I mean,

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and I do say I do not ever remember having

any of those conversations with mom.

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Like, mom, I don't remember

mom ever teaching me about

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deodorant, about tampons, about

pads, about nothing like that.

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I remember very specifically like

Katie and her friend Charlotte

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teaching me about tampons.

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I remember.

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Katie and Tyra teaching

me about shaving my legs.

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I remember Trisha's mom

teaching me about deodorant.

374

:

I don't remember a lot of

that type of thing from mom.

375

:

Meagan McGovern: Yeah.

376

:

I didn't have those kind of friends, and

so I didn't get the memo on any of that.

377

:

I guess, I don't know, I guess I've, not

having older sisters worked badly for me.

378

:

You know,

379

:

Nora Gibbs: I had three older sisters

and I mean, I don't, you know, Morgan

380

:

and I learned a lot of stuff just

from glomming onto her 'cause she

381

:

was so pretty and she knew how to do

makeup and she knew how to do hair.

382

:

So I would just, you know,

follow her and do what she did.

383

:

But you and I were a, you know,

we were six years apart and the

384

:

difference between 16 and 10 is

a big difference at that point.

385

:

You don't wanna be around

a 10-year-old sister.

386

:

You know, you were busy with your

friends and trying to have your own life.

387

:

Meagan McGovern: It just

never occurred to me.

388

:

I, I don't think to talk to

you about stuff like that.

389

:

Um, I mean, we were close, I think

as, as close as a 16-year-old

390

:

and a 10-year-old can be.

391

:

I liked you.

392

:

I read books to you and stuff, but

it never would've occurred to me.

393

:

To talk to you about stuff like that.

394

:

Nora Gibbs: Well, it's your fault that

I smell like a goat, so thank you.

395

:

Yeah,

396

:

Meagan McGovern: well, there you go.

397

:

Um, so,

398

:

Nora Gibbs: so let's talk about some

things that you were talking about

399

:

about, that I was kind of curious about.

400

:

You know, we talked a little bit about

how poor we were at that point, and

401

:

I know that this kind of happens.

402

:

Sorry, getting ahead of ourselves, you

403

:

Meagan McGovern: No, well, so this is

kind of, uh, another of my mom's things

404

:

and it makes her sound like a bad person.

405

:

And this gets into some family

stuff that I don't know how deep

406

:

into family stuff I wanna go.

407

:

But I mean, at some point, my mother,

my mother always used her father and

408

:

her brother and my father for income.

409

:

There was anytime, or an insurance

scam or insurance checks, but there

410

:

was never a steady source of income.

411

:

But once we moved into this house

that she bought with the, um,

412

:

money from the game show, her

father helped her with it somehow.

413

:

And I don't know whether he was helping

her with the mortgage payments or whether.

414

:

She made the down payments, he

was making the mortgage payments.

415

:

It doesn't matter.

416

:

He was helping her somehow, and he was on

the deed somehow, but he got remarried.

417

:

Um, her mother had died a few years back

right before she was on the game show.

418

:

And my grandfather got remarried

and the new wife did not like my

419

:

mother being involved with him

financially because who wants to be

420

:

involved with my mother financially?

421

:

I mean, it's always a

drain, it's always a suck.

422

:

There's nothing.

423

:

And a single mother, four little girls,

she's living in what, a 4,000 square

424

:

foot house with a maid and a housekeeper,

or I mean a housekeeper and a gardener.

425

:

And it was a mess.

426

:

And I know that my mother had credit

cards in grandpa's name and she kind

427

:

of cut all that off the, the new wife

did, which I do not blame her for, but,

428

:

um, mom did blame her for, and mom was

very vocal and very angry about it.

429

:

And I think the expectation was again,

that she was going to go get a job.

430

:

And that didn't happen.

431

:

And so all of a sudden we're

in this big house and there's

432

:

no money coming in again.

433

:

And I think it's possible that

the mortgage payments were

434

:

being made, but that was it.

435

:

There was no other money at all.

436

:

And so my mother decided to

move and for whatever reason we

437

:

decided to move to rural Oregon.

438

:

I don't remember why.

439

:

There must have been a deal on a

house and there was some kind of scam

440

:

associated with us selling the house

that my mother did something where, you

441

:

know, she sold the house for $60,000

more than she had a loan out for.

442

:

And she took the $60,000 in cash

and didn't give it to her father,

443

:

or I don't even know how it worked.

444

:

There was a scam involved and we left to

Oregon and we were supposed to have that

445

:

60,000 in cash and it didn't work out.

446

:

And I think she got 5,000 in

cash and we ended up going.

447

:

My senior year, I had been at a great

school, the, at the Los Angeles Zoo.

448

:

I don't know if I said this before, but

I went to a fantastic school for 10th

449

:

and 11th grade and it was a school for

the highly gifted haha smartest one.

450

:

Um, and it was a school where you went

to the LA Zoo for four classes a day.

451

:

And so like in 11th grade, I was

taking vertebrae, physiology, physical

452

:

anthropology, genetics and zoology.

453

:

And it was an amazing school where

you literally would go out and

454

:

study orangutans and elephants.

455

:

And I had very good friends and I

had been there all of 10th grade, all

456

:

of 11th grade was very much planning

to go back for my senior year.

457

:

I went to Houston for three or four

weeks to visit my aunt and uncle.

458

:

And when I got back from Houston,

this was August of:

459

:

were gone and had moved to Oregon.

460

:

I got back to la.

461

:

But I don't know how you guys got

in the car or where you went or

462

:

who you rode up to Oregon with.

463

:

Well, okay, so here's the thing with

Ride to Oregon and when I got back,

464

:

I was 16, I had turned 16 in April.

465

:

So when we got back in August, I had

one of my mom's friends, Kenny was our

466

:

helper, and he was there and I, he picked

me up from the airport and he said,

467

:

your mom moved to Oregon and she took.

468

:

Katie and Nora and Morgan with her and

Katie's friend Tyra, because at that

469

:

point, Katie's friend, Tyra lived with us.

470

:

Tyra was, so I was 16, Katie was 14,

Tyra was 14, and I don't know if Tyra

471

:

was going to go up there forever or

if she was just gonna go up to visit.

472

:

They all went up there and he said,

you're in charge of the animals and

473

:

you take your car and go up there.

474

:

And so I went to the empty house,

grabbed, I think, whatever, I

475

:

think some of my stuff was packed.

476

:

And this was again, mom screwing me over.

477

:

I don't, stuff was, I don't

know where my clothes were.

478

:

I didn't know what had gotten packed

and what hadn't, but I grabbed

479

:

whatever I could or whatever was left.

480

:

I put it in my car.

481

:

And my best friend at the time, her name

was Susie, was staying with us on and

482

:

off because she had a really abusive

family and she was in a bad situation

483

:

and she asked if she could come up to

Oregon with us to visit or check it out.

484

:

And I said, yes.

485

:

But when she came, when she left,

her mother said, don't come back.

486

:

If you go up with them, don't come back.

487

:

And Susie said, you know, is that okay?

488

:

And I said, I mean, what

are your other options?

489

:

If you're getting kicked out,

you're getting kicked out.

490

:

So come on up.

491

:

So we also took a friend of ours,

I don't even remember how he got

492

:

involved, a guy named Lester who was

like a family friend of a family friend

493

:

who was also our age and who was 17.

494

:

And he got in the car.

495

:

So now we've got three teenagers

all coming to Oregon with me.

496

:

And we had to take a mother cat with four

kittens, a dog and a chicken named Belina.

497

:

Oh, oh,

498

:

Belina

499

:

Meagan McGovern: and Big

500

:

Nora Gibbs: Chicken.

501

:

Meagan McGovern: Susie's

Gerbil or Hamster or something.

502

:

Remember?

503

:

Nora Gibbs: I remember Belina,

504

:

Meagan McGovern: and we

had all of these animals.

505

:

And Oregon is far, I mean, it's a hike

from la You think it's close, but it's not

506

:

Nora Gibbs: it, yeah.

507

:

On the map it looks super close.

508

:

It is not.

509

:

Meagan McGovern: It's, it's 16 hours.

510

:

14 to 16 hours.

511

:

So I know we did it in two days.

512

:

And we had to stay at a hotel one

night and you know, we couldn't

513

:

leave the chicken in the car.

514

:

We couldn't leave the cat and the

mother cats and the babies in the car.

515

:

We had to take all of the animals

in the hotel room and the cat's

516

:

eating the chicken and the

cat's trying to eat the gerbil.

517

:

And we of course didn't

have a cat carrier.

518

:

I think we had a cardboard box.

519

:

And Lenny is this weird guy that we

didn't know very well and I can't

520

:

remember what he was doing or why he

was coming with us to be going, was it

521

:

Lenny or Lester?

522

:

Because, no, it was Lenny.

523

:

Meagan McGovern: Lenny, yeah.

524

:

Nora Gibbs: Lenny was, said Lester.

525

:

It was Lenny.

526

:

Meagan McGovern: So Lenny was not

somebody that either Suzie was

527

:

remotely interested in, romantically.

528

:

This was literally just a guy.

529

:

And I don't remember what he was

doing there, but on the write up,

530

:

okay, remember I'm 16 years old.

531

:

I have had a driver's

license for four months.

532

:

I got a ticket doing 88 miles an hour,

and we got pulled over and the fucking

533

:

chicken job jumped outta the car.

534

:

And I'm, I'm chasing the freeway,

the chicken down the side of the

535

:

freeway as the cop is like wondering

whether to arrest me or kill me.

536

:

And the cats are in the backseat

and he's like, what is this madness?

537

:

What are you doing?

538

:

I'm like, I dunno.

539

:

I'm moving from from LA to Oregon.

540

:

He's like, why are there

only three teenagers here?

541

:

What's with the animals?

542

:

I'm like, I'm moving my mom's animals.

543

:

I don't know.

544

:

He's like, you get up to Oregon and you

tell your mother that 88 miles an hour

545

:

in a shitty ass car is a terrible thing

for a 16-year-old girl with a drive, with

546

:

a, you've been driving for six months

and why do you have all these animals?

547

:

And you get up and you

just tell your mother.

548

:

I'm like, oh, okay.

549

:

Yeah, I'll, I'll tell her that

550

:

Nora Gibbs: and Well, I

appreciate you rescuing Belina.

551

:

Belina was my house chicken named

after, um, the Wizard of Oz, part two.

552

:

Meagan McGovern: She became a

house chicken when we got to Oregon

553

:

because when we got to Oregon

554

:

Nora Gibbs: Yeah.

555

:

She was a house chicken in California too.

556

:

Was she

557

:

Meagan McGovern: okay?

558

:

Nora Gibbs: Yeah, she was

559

:

Meagan McGovern: my

560

:

Nora Gibbs: house chicken.

561

:

Meagan McGovern: Did she

just shit all over the house?

562

:

Nora Gibbs: Yeah.

563

:

It was terrible.

564

:

Meagan McGovern: What the

fuck was wrong with you?

565

:

Why did you have a chicken in the house?

566

:

I dunno.

567

:

I don't know.

568

:

Nora Gibbs: But I loved Belina.

569

:

She was so big.

570

:

She never

571

:

Meagan McGovern: had

like a coop or anything.

572

:

You just let her run around the house.

573

:

Nora Gibbs: I think she had like a

little cage outside, but for the majority

574

:

of the time she was in the house.

575

:

Meagan McGovern: Oh my God.

576

:

Oh my God.

577

:

I mean, I kind of remember you

called her a house chicken,

578

:

but I didn't remember that.

579

:

She actually just wandered the house.

580

:

Pooping.

581

:

Nora Gibbs: Yeah, sorry.

582

:

Um, I cleaned it up.

583

:

I mean, the best that like a 10-year-old

can clean up chicken shit in the house.

584

:

Meagan McGovern: It

was, I mean it was bad.

585

:

Nora Gibbs: This is why I should not

have been unparented or left without

586

:

a mother who didn't keep an eye on me.

587

:

'cause I'll get a house chicken.

588

:

Meagan McGovern: Um, so we got to

Oregon and it was just a disaster.

589

:

And I know you don't remember a lot of it.

590

:

Nora Gibbs: Well, I remember,

so I remember Oregon, the house

591

:

and it's funny, I actually drove

by there about 15 years ago.

592

:

We went up to the house, actually,

the driveway at the house.

593

:

I remember exactly how to get there.

594

:

So the house was.

595

:

You had to go up a really long

driveway and the driveway was

596

:

probably half a mile long.

597

:

Meagan McGovern: It was through

wood, and it's really, really steep.

598

:

Nora Gibbs: Really steep

through a wooded forest,

599

:

Meagan McGovern: right?

600

:

Nora Gibbs: And you have to

like go over and it's outside of

601

:

Medford, Oregon, this little tiny

town called Roush, Oregon, RUCH.

602

:

And you have to go over this

bridge that is like through this

603

:

beautiful river over the rogue

604

:

Meagan McGovern: river.

605

:

The rogue river is gorgeous.

606

:

There

607

:

Nora Gibbs: it was.

608

:

It was unbelievable.

609

:

And you go up this winding driveway and

then up there's like this huge pasture.

610

:

And at the top of the pasture

there's this beautiful house.

611

:

It's this big wooden,

beautiful house, brown.

612

:

And then off to the left there's

a barn and it's just behind it.

613

:

It's just forest.

614

:

It's forest everywhere.

615

:

And it was, and it

616

:

Meagan McGovern: looked, it looked

like something outta Architectural

617

:

Digest from the seventies.

618

:

One of those log cabins with huge porch.

619

:

Huge porch, and a big um, aha roof.

620

:

But with glass front, I mean, just.

621

:

Spectacular house that it was gorgeous.

622

:

Anybody would love to live there.

623

:

And it was very seventies macrame vibes,

you know, kind of like, but it's so remote

624

:

Nora Gibbs: that look, when Dave and

I went by there about 15 years ago

625

:

actually when we were driving up to

visit you, um, Dave and I swung by there

626

:

with the girls so I could show them it.

627

:

And there were signs everywhere about

keep out, keep out militia nearby, right?

628

:

Like that's how remote it was.

629

:

Like it's the Oregon militia

lives there now, right?

630

:

It was out in a, not a

place for a woman and

631

:

four kids,

632

:

Meagan McGovern: so, well, here's

the thing, all right, so it

633

:

was the four of us, plus Susie,

plus Tyra, plus Lenny, plus

634

:

Lenny.

635

:

Meagan McGovern: So

that's seven teenagers.

636

:

I mean, you were 10, but essentially

seven kids between 10 and 16.

637

:

And we moved there with

no money and no plan.

638

:

And no job.

639

:

And we had really shitty cars.

640

:

So there was not a good

lot of way to get around.

641

:

Nora Gibbs: Do you wanna hear

something terrible though?

642

:

Yeah.

643

:

When we got to the house and

I had Mofi in the car with me

644

:

'cause Mofi was like my cat.

645

:

When we opened the door to get out of

the car, out of the, we got out the car

646

:

to go in the house for the first time.

647

:

Right when we moved there, MUFI ran off

into the woods and I never saw her again.

648

:

Meagan McGovern: You're miss, you're

misremembering that it was Timmy the

649

:

dog and I wasn't gonna bring it up.

650

:

Nora Gibbs: No.

651

:

Timmy was at the next house.

652

:

Timmy.

653

:

The Dale.

654

:

Yeah.

655

:

Absolutely.

656

:

Yes.

657

:

I remember every animal I've lost.

658

:

You wanna talk about tragedy?

659

:

Meagan McGovern: No, I don't

wanna, I don't wanna talk.

660

:

I People are gonna hate us.

661

:

I don't wanna talk about lost dogs.

662

:

I don't wanna, I don't wanna talk

about lost animals and lost dogs.

663

:

There's, I mean, those are real tragedies,

but I don't wanna, I that's like, no.

664

:

Nora Gibbs: Anyway, Mo Rock after

all that shit about keeping the

665

:

cat in the car the whole way after

movie, working off into the woods

666

:

as soon as we gotta the hospital.

667

:

Because

668

:

Meagan McGovern: I remembered something

about Timmy and I think it was the same.

669

:

Scenario with, it was the same,

670

:

Nora Gibbs: it was the

next house in Oregon.

671

:

Cindy ran off into the

woods and never came back.

672

:

Meagan McGovern: I mean, we had

no bright having animals, but

673

:

Nora Gibbs: no, it

674

:

Meagan McGovern: was

675

:

Nora Gibbs: horrific.

676

:

Meagan McGovern: So when we first

started school there, so two weeks

677

:

into this I had to start school.

678

:

This was my senior year and I had

grand plans of going to college.

679

:

I was going to be an archeologist,

preferably an underwater

680

:

archeologist, diving on wreck ships.

681

:

This was my thing.

682

:

And I did not have great grades

in high school because I did

683

:

not know that I had a DHD.

684

:

And also because like when I would get

home at night, there was no concept

685

:

of doing homework or having a backpack

or having papers and pens or anything.

686

:

I am adamantly against homework for

public school kids because of this.

687

:

'cause I think that homework is

designed to set up poor kids and

688

:

kids from chaotic families to fail.

689

:

Um, but I wanted to do well and I

had had the highest PSAT score in

690

:

11th grade in my school, and I was.

691

:

Set up for scholarship.

692

:

So I wanted to do this.

693

:

So we went to the local high school,

which was, which was Medford.

694

:

I don't remember when it was

695

:

Medford High

696

:

Meagan McGovern: School.

697

:

Medford High School.

698

:

Medford High School was

44 minutes from the house.

699

:

So you and Morgan went

to an elementary school?

700

:

Nora Gibbs: We went to elementary

school and we rode the bus.

701

:

And there was a whole thing about

the bus, because the bus like had

702

:

service originally, and then it

stopped service right after there.

703

:

So here's

704

:

Meagan McGovern: the thing.

705

:

It stopped service right after

we started because they got

706

:

rid of a stop or something.

707

:

Right.

708

:

And Katie and Tyra went to the

middle school and Lenny and Susie

709

:

and I all went to the high school.

710

:

I don't know how Lenny

ended up living with us.

711

:

I, I, I mean really, I don't have any idea

how he was there, why he ended up living

712

:

with us, or why he started school there.

713

:

I didn't like him.

714

:

I remember him being very weird,

but I don't, I mean, and also a

715

:

17-year-old, or 18-year-old guy

living in a house with six girls.

716

:

I, it's all very creepy and vague.

717

:

But I don't think he was creepy.

718

:

I'm not accusing him of anything.

719

:

If he's listening or, you

know, remembers any of this.

720

:

I, I just think it was

a very weird scenario.

721

:

Um, but I had to get up in the

morning and it was my job in my

722

:

car to drive you, to drive you and

Morgan to the elementary school.

723

:

But there were two other little

girls that we had to pick up

724

:

that had to go, it was like

725

:

a carpool, a

726

:

Meagan McGovern: weird carpool.

727

:

It was a carpool thing.

728

:

And so some mornings they picked you up,

but some mornings we had to pick them up.

729

:

So that was four of you.

730

:

Plus Susie, Tyra, Katie, and Lenny.

731

:

And Lenny and me.

732

:

So that's nine kids that I had

to get to school in the morning.

733

:

Nora Gibbs: That's a lot of kids.

734

:

And

735

:

Meagan McGovern: I had

to be there by eight 15.

736

:

And so

737

:

Nora Gibbs: what was mom doing?

738

:

Mom was just not getting

out of bed at this point.

739

:

I think that there was,

this is what her depression,

740

:

Meagan McGovern: she wasn't,

she wasn't getting outta bed.

741

:

And we only had one car that worked.

742

:

Oh.

743

:

And so I had to leave her at home.

744

:

Either she had to drive us all 43 minutes

into town and then wait with the car all

745

:

day, or else come back and it didn't make

any sense to do a two hour round trip.

746

:

Right.

747

:

So I would take the car and I

would drive, go pick up those two

748

:

weird little girls and then pick

up, I don't, they weren't weird.

749

:

It was just a weird scenario.

750

:

Nora Gibbs: Angelina was what

I, I remember Angelina, and

751

:

Meagan McGovern: then take you two to the

elementary school, which was, I think in

752

:

town, and I must have had to come back

and get, 'cause I know nine people weren't

753

:

gonna fit in one car and then get Katie

and Tyra and Lenny and Susie and me.

754

:

And then when we got into town for the

school, by the time we got there, I

755

:

was always late, but, and my, um, class

was already starting, but Susie, they,

756

:

Susie and Lenny were late and yelling.

757

:

And so they would have me drop them off at

school so they wouldn't be any more late.

758

:

Then I'd go back and drop off

Tyra and Katie to school so

759

:

that they wouldn't be late.

760

:

And then I'd get back and I was

an hour late for school every day.

761

:

Yeah.

762

:

Every single day.

763

:

And I remember my Spanish teacher sitting

me down and saying, well, you need to

764

:

get more organized and we need to talk

about why you're so late every day.

765

:

And we need to see what we can do.

766

:

And I tried to explain it to him and he

told me, I just basically said, you know,

767

:

we were good at lying at this point.

768

:

And I just, well, my sister makes

me late 'cause she's never ready.

769

:

And so one morning I remember saying

to Katie and Tyra, I'm leaving at seven

770

:

30 on the dot, my Spanish teacher said,

we need to leave at seven 30 on the dot

771

:

or, and I need to set some boundaries

with you, or whatever the phrase was

772

:

for setting boundaries in those days.

773

:

Put your foot down.

774

:

And she was so mad.

775

:

She was furious.

776

:

'cause I said I was

gonna leave without her.

777

:

And mom was furious.

778

:

'cause that meant she would've

had to be stuck home with a mad

779

:

Katie and a mad Tyra all day.

780

:

Yeah.

781

:

So mom said, no, you can't

leave if she's not ready.

782

:

And Katie went slower and slower

and said, I need more mascara.

783

:

And it was a lot.

784

:

I mean,

785

:

Nora Gibbs: I was a year, it

gave me anxiety and I don't,

786

:

Meagan McGovern: but I lived it.

787

:

I, I was a year younger than Scout.

788

:

Yeah.

789

:

And so you're older than Scout a year?

790

:

Yeah, I was a year older than scout

scout's, a year younger than I was.

791

:

And just the idea, I mean, I wouldn't

trust her to drive a cat somewhere.

792

:

Nora Gibbs: I know

793

:

Meagan McGovern: much less at 88 miles

an hour, much less chicken and a cat.

794

:

Yeah, no kidding.

795

:

Um, and then we got there

and it was, we were poor.

796

:

I mean, there was no money.

797

:

And I'm surprised you say you

don't remember being poor.

798

:

Nora Gibbs: I don't remember

being poor because I feel like

799

:

there were so many cool things

about that house that I remember.

800

:

I remember picking blackberries for pies.

801

:

One maybe a killer blackberry pie.

802

:

Yeah.

803

:

And there were blackberry

bushes everywhere.

804

:

I remember spending a lot of time

at my friend Angelina's house

805

:

Meagan McGovern: again when we

first got there, mom was happy.

806

:

I remember when I pulled up there with

the cat and the chickens and everybody

807

:

else, mom was standing on the porch

and it was one of these upper loft

808

:

beautiful balconies, and the house was.

809

:

Glorious.

810

:

And I was like, okay, I can live here.

811

:

This is fantastic.

812

:

Yeah.

813

:

And mom was standing on the

porch singing John Denver.

814

:

She was singing, taking

me home Country roads.

815

:

Nora Gibbs: It was a beautiful location.

816

:

And you know, and I, I mean we, we

had a lot of fun in that house also.

817

:

I mean, you know, we used to go swimming

in that river, in the rogue river and we

818

:

would jump off the rocks and there was

this, I don't know how we didn't die.

819

:

There was a spot in the river where

you could jump off a rock and it would

820

:

suck you under and then spit you out

like a hundred feet down a river.

821

:

Meagan McGovern: Okay.

822

:

That sounds terrible.

823

:

Nora Gibbs: Oh, it was like

this, uh, it was horrific.

824

:

Like the thought of it now is like,

what the fuck were we thinking?

825

:

I was 10 years old doing, it

was jumping off this rock.

826

:

It would suck.

827

:

You wonder for a few minutes.

828

:

You had to take a deep breath.

829

:

'cause you didn't know where

it was gonna spit you out.

830

:

Oh.

831

:

And then it, and then if you would go

like far enough down the river to the

832

:

slow part, there were, um, oh my God.

833

:

What are the things that

leches, there were leches.

834

:

Oh, that would get all over you.

835

:

Yeah.

836

:

So I mean, it was a, but like, it

was funny, like you'd be like, oh my

837

:

God, you got a leash on you and you'd

like pull leches off your friends.

838

:

Meagan McGovern: I do remember, I do

remember going fishing there and I know

839

:

that, um, Katie and Tyra used to go

down there so they could smoke, right?

840

:

And they would go smoke under the

bridge so they could get away from mom

841

:

and she wouldn't find them smoking.

842

:

And, but it was

843

:

Nora Gibbs: remote.

844

:

I mean, it was, I remember how

far it was from everything.

845

:

And I don't think we

lived there very long.

846

:

I wanna say it was like three

months we only lived there because

847

:

Meagan McGovern: I think we did, first

last we probably did the deposit.

848

:

This is what she always did,

was first, last and deposit.

849

:

That's three months, right?

850

:

And so the first month you

lived there, everything's good.

851

:

'cause you've got first, last deposit,

the second month you don't pay the

852

:

rent and they start yelling at you.

853

:

And the third month they

give you 30 days notice.

854

:

And I don't remember, this is one of

the only times in my, in my life that

855

:

I have a lot of it honestly blacked

out because it was so stressful for

856

:

me with the driving and the kids

and having all these people around.

857

:

And Susie and I stopped being friends

or being close at all once she moved

858

:

up there, because we had been very good

friends in school and we liked each other.

859

:

But when we were forced to live together

and she felt like she had no place

860

:

to go, and she was this, she had it

worse than we did in a lot of ways.

861

:

She had no other home.

862

:

Her home was when

863

:

Nora Gibbs: you guys lived

864

:

Meagan McGovern: in

865

:

Nora Gibbs: the basement together?

866

:

Meagan McGovern: I don't remember.

867

:

We all know I, I had a basement bedroom,

but Katie and Tyra were mad that I

868

:

got a bedroom and they had to live

in the garage basement or something.

869

:

And all I remember about that

house is Katie and Tyra being

870

:

angry with me and having a kind of

a campaign of terror against me.

871

:

And it was the first time that Katie

and I had ever not gotten along.

872

:

Yeah.

873

:

And it was because she had Tyra on her

side and it was, they were really mad

874

:

at me for whatever it was I had done.

875

:

I don't know.

876

:

I maybe I was a pain in the ass.

877

:

I'm sure I was.

878

:

Um, but they were, it

was, it was very, very.

879

:

Antagonistic and stressful and grumpy.

880

:

And mom wanted my help because she

went downhill very fast when she

881

:

realized there was no money coming.

882

:

And when she realized we had to move.

883

:

So this whole thing, I sort of proceeded

this with, this whole thing was

884

:

predicated on she was going to get a lot

of money from the house in Los Angeles.

885

:

She was going to get like a hundred

thousand dollars or $70,000 or something,

886

:

and that they owed her the money when

the house sold or when it closed.

887

:

And that was what the plan was for Oregon.

888

:

But it kept falling through

and kept getting postponed

889

:

and the money just never came.

890

:

And finally, by like Christmas,

it became evident that it wasn't

891

:

gonna happen and there was no money.

892

:

And that she had really fucked up.

893

:

That she had moved there

with no support network.

894

:

My father wasn't there, my aunt

wasn't there, her father wasn't there.

895

:

We were 50 miles away from anything

and there was no money coming in.

896

:

And no way to earn money.

897

:

You couldn't go.

898

:

Do check scams and in and bad

checks if there was only one

899

:

grocery store in town, right?

900

:

You couldn't scam doctor's offices.

901

:

If there were no doctor's offices,

there was literally no backup.

902

:

There was no saving.

903

:

Nora Gibbs: I remember, and I think

that this was at this house also, that

904

:

there was some sort of food pantry

or at church I remember like shopping

905

:

for food and having it be free.

906

:

Meagan McGovern: Yeah.

907

:

See, I don't remember that.

908

:

I do remember.

909

:

Um, so what I do remember is this is the

house, and I guess I'm gonna admit to

910

:

illegal things here and some of my, my

bad past, but I assume the statute of

911

:

limitations, the statute of limitations

912

:

Nora Gibbs: has passed.

913

:

And

914

:

Meagan McGovern: also I really try hard

to be a good example and a moral example.

915

:

And I mean, I take my role

as scout, master, and mother

916

:

and mentor very seriously as

trying to be a, a good person.

917

:

I'm not gonna say that I'm the most

ethical person of all time, but I don't.

918

:

I cheat on my husband.

919

:

I don't lie lie much.

920

:

I might lie to some people once in

a while the same way everybody does.

921

:

But I mean, I'm not a goodie two

shoes, but I really try hard to be

922

:

the opposite of what my mother was.

923

:

And I certainly don't cheat people.

924

:

That's one of the things that

has always been, you know, one

925

:

of my core bedrock things is I

don't cheat people, I don't steal.

926

:

But at this point we were desperate.

927

:

And I don't think we had any food.

928

:

I don't think we had any money.

929

:

We didn't have the rent coming in.

930

:

And my mother made me, made me, persuaded

me, told me to, however you wanna say it.

931

:

Um, I wrecked my car

for the insurance money.

932

:

The car was not working well, it

wasn't a great car to begin with.

933

:

Um, and I think it needed work.

934

:

And she had me drive it into

the river and smash it and say

935

:

that the brakes had failed.

936

:

I remember that.

937

:

So

938

:

Meagan McGovern: that.

939

:

I remember you were in an accident.

940

:

Yes.

941

:

And mom was not upset about it.

942

:

Meagan McGovern: Right.

943

:

I was in an accident, and I remember Lenny

and Susie both accusing me of doing it on

944

:

purpose because they could see that there

was no way that that could have happened

945

:

and that the brakes hadn't gone out.

946

:

And I remember being so angry and

so defensive and saying, how dare

947

:

you accuse me of something like that

and how dare you, blah, blah, blah.

948

:

But I think we got, I don't

know, the ungodly sum of like

949

:

2,500 or $3,000 for the car.

950

:

And that let us eat.

951

:

And it was three weeks before Christmas

or something, and we ended up moving

952

:

into another house, which was in Talent,

953

:

Oregon

954

:

Meagan McGovern: talent.

955

:

And it was a tiny, small, shitty

little rental, which is something

956

:

we had never done before.

957

:

Nora Gibbs: Yeah.

958

:

That was a tiny house, remember

959

:

Meagan McGovern: that we never lived in.

960

:

But

961

:

Nora Gibbs: this tiny house was

also on a huge, large lot of land.

962

:

Meagan McGovern: I don't remember

anything about that house.

963

:

I don't remember the layout.

964

:

I don't remember where it was.

965

:

I don't remember where it went to school.

966

:

I had blacked out that entire thing

and it's the only part of our whole

967

:

screwed up childhood that I blacked out.

968

:

And I don't know whether it was

because there was so much trauma

969

:

and abuse and I don't remember it or

whether it was just kind of a blur.

970

:

'cause we were only

there for a month or two.

971

:

But I know that by

January we were back in LA

972

:

Nora Gibbs: Well I went to, but I

went to school in that house and

973

:

I went to school in that house for

what, three or four weeks I guess.

974

:

Did you have to switch?

975

:

Did you have to switch schools?

976

:

I had to switch schools.

977

:

I switched schools from whatever school I

was in a rouge to a new school in talent.

978

:

And I remember this very specifically

'cause Katie and Tyra decided to give me

979

:

a haircut before the first day of school.

980

:

Wow.

981

:

And that is when they cut my hair so

short that I looked like Rod Stewart.

982

:

Wow.

983

:

You remember when I had

that horrific haircut?

984

:

Meagan McGovern: I remember

nothing about any of this.

985

:

Nora Gibbs: Oh my God.

986

:

They gave me the worst

fucking haircut of my life.

987

:

And it was like my back to school haircut.

988

:

Or they gave me a haircut and

I had to go get it fixed and

989

:

that's, they had to fix it.

990

:

And that's when I had to be cut so short.

991

:

So I started school at Disney School

and my hair was super short, so I

992

:

was like this weird, funky little

little girl, you know, 10, 11 years

993

:

old and with a horrific haircut.

994

:

And thankfully we weren't there very long.

995

:

Meagan McGovern: I think Susie and I were

able to stay at the same high school.

996

:

I don't remember what happened to Lenny.

997

:

I think my, maybe Lenny stayed in Oregon.

998

:

But what happened in January?

999

:

So we had moved there in August,

and by January, I'll tell

:

00:41:47,825 --> 00:41:48,904

Nora Gibbs: you, this is also the house.

:

00:41:48,904 --> 00:41:50,495

This is the house where I had that puppy.

:

00:41:50,495 --> 00:41:52,654

When mom was a little girl,

she had a dog named Timmy.

:

00:41:52,834 --> 00:41:54,605

Timmy was a terrier of some

:

00:41:54,605 --> 00:41:54,725

Meagan McGovern: sort.

:

00:41:54,870 --> 00:41:55,029

Dale.

:

00:41:55,685 --> 00:41:58,325

Nora Gibbs: And, well, I don't think

it was an Dale though, nor and or was

:

00:41:58,325 --> 00:41:59,359

telling me it was something, a wired

:

00:41:59,479 --> 00:41:59,640

Meagan McGovern: terrier.

:

00:41:59,979 --> 00:42:01,055

Nora Gibbs: It was a wired hair tarrot.

:

00:42:01,294 --> 00:42:05,015

But I had it in my mind that Timmy was

an Dale and I always wanted an Dale.

:

00:42:05,015 --> 00:42:06,125

That was the dog that I wanted.

:

00:42:06,245 --> 00:42:09,455

So we found somebody who was

breeding Airedales and mom got

:

00:42:09,455 --> 00:42:11,734

me an dale, and I named it Timmy.

:

00:42:12,035 --> 00:42:17,705

And I had Timmy for roughly 36 hours

before Timmy took off into the field,

:

00:42:17,705 --> 00:42:19,595

behind our house and was never seen again.

:

00:42:20,734 --> 00:42:20,854

Yeah.

:

00:42:20,884 --> 00:42:21,185

And

:

00:42:21,185 --> 00:42:21,935

Nora Gibbs: that was horrific.

:

00:42:21,935 --> 00:42:23,285

And I cried and I was sad.

:

00:42:23,285 --> 00:42:25,444

And there's a movie that came out

in the eighties and it was called

:

00:42:25,444 --> 00:42:27,484

Funny Farm with Chevy Chase.

:

00:42:27,754 --> 00:42:30,484

And there's this move, there's a scene in

the movie where they, once in a while they

:

00:42:30,484 --> 00:42:33,754

see a dog running through the field by

their house, and they're, that's my dog.

:

00:42:34,084 --> 00:42:36,305

So now that was always what we

thought about, you know, there's

:

00:42:36,305 --> 00:42:39,365

Timmy running through the field,

you know, but so Timmy was gone.

:

00:42:39,365 --> 00:42:41,734

So I went through animals,

I mean so quickly.

:

00:42:41,734 --> 00:42:43,115

Why would anyone get me an animal?

:

00:42:43,415 --> 00:42:44,044

But anyway,

:

00:42:44,495 --> 00:42:45,064

I digress.

:

00:42:45,064 --> 00:42:46,745

Meagan McGovern: I don't

think it was you, frankly.

:

00:42:46,834 --> 00:42:51,754

Um, so all I remember is that

at some point mom decided that

:

00:42:51,754 --> 00:42:52,955

she couldn't do this anymore.

:

00:42:53,330 --> 00:42:57,919

That she needed to go back to LA to

get the money that she needed to go

:

00:42:57,919 --> 00:43:00,740

figure out the money from the house

and that we needed to be in la.

:

00:43:00,770 --> 00:43:01,730

I mean, okay.

:

00:43:01,730 --> 00:43:06,830

At one point, this is how weird things

were, it seems like kind of a fever dream

:

00:43:07,700 --> 00:43:12,890

that we needed a new car after we mom

wrecked the one for the insurance money.

:

00:43:12,890 --> 00:43:19,549

We had no car, and mom had a guy

she knew in LA who would give her a

:

00:43:19,549 --> 00:43:24,200

car on credit or basically just give

her a car, but I had to go get it.

:

00:43:25,459 --> 00:43:31,009

And so she sent Katie and

me to LA in a private plane.

:

00:43:32,209 --> 00:43:36,529

What it was, some guy had a private

plane that was like four seats.

:

00:43:37,310 --> 00:43:38,209

I've never heard this.

:

00:43:38,209 --> 00:43:38,480

And

:

00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:42,500

Meagan McGovern: Katie and I had to get

in the plane and we rode in the back

:

00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:48,200

of this private plane from Oregon to

LA and I mean, not like a private jet.

:

00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:50,600

This was like a little four seater thing.

:

00:43:51,230 --> 00:43:53,779

And I don't remember why we were

doing it, how she hooked up with

:

00:43:53,779 --> 00:43:55,220

this person, what the deal was.

:

00:43:55,430 --> 00:43:57,470

I don't know how we got from

the airport, but I do remember

:

00:43:57,470 --> 00:43:59,299

the plane ride being terrifying.

:

00:43:59,540 --> 00:44:00,890

It was something in a yellow jacket.

:

00:44:00,890 --> 00:44:04,279

It's like we're flying over the

Cascades in this four seater private

:

00:44:04,279 --> 00:44:08,029

plane and we couldn't hear anything

because it was so loud and it was just

:

00:44:08,029 --> 00:44:10,879

this really long, terrifying flight.

:

00:44:11,450 --> 00:44:17,720

And then we got there and her friend

Jim fixed us up with a Subaru and we

:

00:44:17,720 --> 00:44:22,100

must have driven back up to Oregon and

then to pick us up, came and got all

:

00:44:22,100 --> 00:44:24,140

of you and then we all got back home.

:

00:44:24,140 --> 00:44:27,230

And I don't know how we got the

furniture, I don't know how any of

:

00:44:27,290 --> 00:44:29,149

it worked, but somehow do remember

:

00:44:29,149 --> 00:44:30,620

Nora Gibbs: being in a hotel.

:

00:44:30,770 --> 00:44:34,879

So we were in a hotel at this point, and

I feel like this is the time that we were

:

00:44:34,879 --> 00:44:40,129

in a hotel in LA and we were in a hotel

and I need to Google the date of it.

:

00:44:40,129 --> 00:44:41,825

But it was the date, no, it

was the day Challenge exploded.

:

00:44:41,964 --> 00:44:42,185

It was

:

00:44:42,191 --> 00:44:47,299

Meagan McGovern: January

st of, of:

:

00:44:48,004 --> 00:44:48,225

And.

:

00:44:48,995 --> 00:44:49,420

Remember that everybody other

:

00:44:49,610 --> 00:44:52,505

Nora Gibbs: America was in school

when the Challenger exploded.

:

00:44:52,805 --> 00:44:54,065

I, and we were in a hotel.

:

00:44:54,065 --> 00:44:56,975

I was driving through McDonald's with

mom at that time, and the lady said,

:

00:44:56,975 --> 00:44:58,565

oh my God, the challenger exploded.

:

00:44:58,805 --> 00:45:01,595

Meagan McGovern: Oh, I was, I was back

in the hotel and it wasn't, Morgan

:

00:45:01,595 --> 00:45:03,875

will be very adamant about this.

:

00:45:04,295 --> 00:45:06,605

It was not a hotel, it was a motel.

:

00:45:06,665 --> 00:45:08,255

And she says it was a hooker motel.

:

00:45:08,540 --> 00:45:12,005

And I don't remember whether it

was a hooker motel, but Morgan

:

00:45:12,005 --> 00:45:13,595

said, Morgan talks about this time.

:

00:45:13,625 --> 00:45:15,424

'cause I think this was

really kind of the low point.

:

00:45:15,610 --> 00:45:16,500

This was the first time.

:

00:45:16,500 --> 00:45:16,622

So this was

:

00:45:16,715 --> 00:45:18,815

th,:

:

00:45:18,875 --> 00:45:20,435

Meagan McGovern: This was the

first time we'd ever been homeless.

:

00:45:21,185 --> 00:45:21,455

Nora Gibbs: Yeah.

:

00:45:21,515 --> 00:45:21,634

And

:

00:45:21,634 --> 00:45:22,955

Meagan McGovern: it was the

first time we'd ever been in

:

00:45:22,955 --> 00:45:24,215

a hotel, living in a hotel.

:

00:45:24,785 --> 00:45:26,765

And we had no place to go until mom.

:

00:45:27,665 --> 00:45:29,345

Nora Gibbs: And I think we

had a couple of rooms though,

:

00:45:29,345 --> 00:45:30,725

because there were so many of us.

:

00:45:30,785 --> 00:45:31,025

Meagan McGovern: Right.

:

00:45:31,055 --> 00:45:32,345

'cause Susie was in the room with us.

:

00:45:32,345 --> 00:45:33,605

She couldn't go back to her parents.

:

00:45:34,025 --> 00:45:35,915

Nora Gibbs: I feel like it

was you and Katie and Tyra and

:

00:45:35,915 --> 00:45:37,775

Susie and me and mom and Morgan.

:

00:45:37,835 --> 00:45:40,775

Meagan McGovern: Tyra and Susie went,

Tyra and Katie went off to Tyra's house

:

00:45:40,775 --> 00:45:42,485

for a while to get out of the room.

:

00:45:42,965 --> 00:45:46,775

And I remember that day because, and

this has happened every time since then.

:

00:45:47,645 --> 00:45:53,315

Whenever I move, I get deathly Ill just

completely sick and I mean, go figure.

:

00:45:53,734 --> 00:45:57,875

And I was in the room with the worst

flu I've ever had, like stomach flu

:

00:45:57,875 --> 00:45:59,645

and, and barfing and everything.

:

00:45:59,975 --> 00:46:03,395

And the challenger came on and one of

the reasons I remember is 'cause the

:

00:46:03,395 --> 00:46:07,024

night before that, um, I'd gone out

with my friends from high school 'cause

:

00:46:07,174 --> 00:46:08,674

the ones from LA that I had missed.

:

00:46:09,035 --> 00:46:12,185

And I ended up making out with one

of them, a guy, obviously, I'm not

:

00:46:12,185 --> 00:46:15,815

gonna say who it was, but it was

like the first time I had ever Josh.

:

00:46:16,055 --> 00:46:16,565

It wasn't

:

00:46:17,254 --> 00:46:18,035

Nora Gibbs: Oh, it wasn't Josh.

:

00:46:18,035 --> 00:46:18,185

Okay.

:

00:46:18,185 --> 00:46:18,365

No, it

:

00:46:18,365 --> 00:46:18,904

Meagan McGovern: was the other one.

:

00:46:19,024 --> 00:46:19,565

But anyway.

:

00:46:20,075 --> 00:46:20,404

Nora Gibbs: Oh my god.

:

00:46:20,404 --> 00:46:20,855

Chris,

:

00:46:21,185 --> 00:46:21,995

Meagan McGovern: can you hush?

:

00:46:22,924 --> 00:46:24,335

What about, I don't wanna say K.

:

00:46:24,335 --> 00:46:27,490

Shush, which is once,

and I know he listens.

:

00:46:27,634 --> 00:46:27,785

Okay.

:

00:46:27,785 --> 00:46:30,365

It was truly the first time

I'd ever kissed anybody.

:

00:46:31,654 --> 00:46:31,895

Oh my God.

:

00:46:31,895 --> 00:46:34,504

And honestly, I liked

his best friend, not him.

:

00:46:34,504 --> 00:46:38,225

And he knew that, and he liked

Susie and I liked his best friend.

:

00:46:38,225 --> 00:46:39,365

And so it was a whole mess.

:

00:46:39,455 --> 00:46:46,265

But it was like all of a sudden I came

from this disaster in, um, Oregon back to.

:

00:46:46,910 --> 00:46:48,710

I've got a guy that I like.

:

00:46:48,710 --> 00:46:50,870

I've got another guy that

I kind of made out with.

:

00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:52,250

I've got a best friend here.

:

00:46:52,250 --> 00:46:56,720

There's a whole love triangle thing

going, and this is one of the few things

:

00:46:56,720 --> 00:46:58,070

that mom did that really impressed me.

:

00:46:59,540 --> 00:47:02,660

Susie and I went and tried to go back

to school and they said, you can't, once

:

00:47:02,660 --> 00:47:03,950

you leave a magnet program, you're out.

:

00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:07,250

And mom said, no, that wasn't their fault.

:

00:47:07,250 --> 00:47:08,690

They were only gone three or four months.

:

00:47:08,690 --> 00:47:11,900

And they said, no, you can only get

into a magnet program in, you know,

:

00:47:11,930 --> 00:47:14,029

10th grade when you start and you

have to go through the whole program.

:

00:47:14,060 --> 00:47:15,500

You can't leave after a semester.

:

00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:22,700

And mom went to the school board and she

found somebody on the school board and got

:

00:47:22,700 --> 00:47:25,580

their phone number and had them intervene

and had them put us back into school.

:

00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:27,080

And while

:

00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:28,460

Nora Gibbs: we were living

in a hotel shooting while we

:

00:47:28,460 --> 00:47:30,259

Meagan McGovern: were living in

a hotel so that we could start

:

00:47:30,259 --> 00:47:31,370

going to school from the hotel.

:

00:47:31,670 --> 00:47:35,509

And then those boys came to pick us up

and drive us to school and get us there.

:

00:47:35,509 --> 00:47:35,570

Wow.

:

00:47:36,140 --> 00:47:42,110

And um, I mean, within a couple of weeks

we were in a another rental house somehow.

:

00:47:43,129 --> 00:47:46,100

Nora Gibbs: So from that, it was that

point we moved to the house on Morrison

:

00:47:46,100 --> 00:47:46,310

Meagan McGovern: Street.

:

00:47:46,310 --> 00:47:46,490

Right.

:

00:47:46,759 --> 00:47:47,990

And at that point, yeah.

:

00:47:48,230 --> 00:47:52,069

And at that point we didn't, um,

I mean, we, she never got the

:

00:47:52,069 --> 00:47:53,000

money from the house in Ally.

:

00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:54,379

She never got the money

from selling the house.

:

00:47:54,410 --> 00:47:56,930

And I think the house eventually

went into foreclosure, all that time,

:

00:47:56,930 --> 00:48:00,080

money, energy, and everything else.

:

00:48:00,529 --> 00:48:01,490

And it was just lost.

:

00:48:01,759 --> 00:48:07,460

But, um, so we moved back to LA to,

to get all of the money from this scam

:

00:48:07,460 --> 00:48:08,779

or whatever it was she was pulling.

:

00:48:09,290 --> 00:48:10,970

And it didn't work.

:

00:48:11,779 --> 00:48:15,650

But at least we were back in LA

where if we were starving, we could

:

00:48:15,650 --> 00:48:17,089

go to Aunt Maggie's house and say,

:

00:48:17,810 --> 00:48:18,740

Nora Gibbs: or we could call dad.

:

00:48:18,799 --> 00:48:19,400

Meagan McGovern: We could call dad.

:

00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:20,150

We wouldn't,

:

00:48:20,930 --> 00:48:21,140

Nora Gibbs: yeah.

:

00:48:21,145 --> 00:48:24,560

Meagan McGovern: I, I don't think in my

entire life that I ever called dad and

:

00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:25,970

told him the truth and said, we're hungry.

:

00:48:28,790 --> 00:48:29,089

Nora Gibbs: Yeah.

:

00:48:29,089 --> 00:48:31,460

I mean, I didn't really have a

relationship with him at that point.

:

00:48:31,549 --> 00:48:31,759

Right.

:

00:48:31,759 --> 00:48:32,990

I mean, I was a little, I would never,

:

00:48:33,049 --> 00:48:35,420

Meagan McGovern: I would never

have admitted that to him, but I.

:

00:48:35,915 --> 00:48:36,155

Yeah.

:

00:48:36,185 --> 00:48:38,315

And I would never have told

Aunt Maggie we were hungry.

:

00:48:38,345 --> 00:48:40,715

'cause she would've yelled at us and

said, why didn't you guys tell me?

:

00:48:40,715 --> 00:48:42,005

And what's going on with you guys?

:

00:48:42,005 --> 00:48:45,455

And then it would've been a thing where

we had to call a a, you know, grandpa.

:

00:48:45,455 --> 00:48:45,875

It would've been,

:

00:48:46,175 --> 00:48:48,965

Nora Gibbs: I can remember spending lots

of time in Aunt Maggie's house though.

:

00:48:49,265 --> 00:48:49,685

Meagan McGovern: Yes.

:

00:48:49,805 --> 00:48:51,995

Nora Gibbs: I remember being

dropped off there for a weekend

:

00:48:51,995 --> 00:48:54,395

and it was like, there's food here.

:

00:48:54,395 --> 00:48:56,375

There's little Maggie had friends.

:

00:48:56,375 --> 00:48:57,815

Matt had friends that I loved.

:

00:48:57,815 --> 00:48:58,475

We ran around.

:

00:48:58,475 --> 00:48:59,525

We had the best time ever.

:

00:48:59,885 --> 00:49:01,655

And it was, that was like my home.

:

00:49:01,655 --> 00:49:01,745

Right.

:

00:49:02,015 --> 00:49:03,845

Because it was a home that

had always been there.

:

00:49:03,845 --> 00:49:04,025

But it

:

00:49:04,025 --> 00:49:07,715

Meagan McGovern: was also clear

though, that she didn't wanna feed

:

00:49:07,715 --> 00:49:09,395

four little kids all the time.

:

00:49:10,025 --> 00:49:10,925

Nora Gibbs: No, but she would feed me.

:

00:49:10,925 --> 00:49:11,465

She would feed.

:

00:49:11,705 --> 00:49:11,885

Right.

:

00:49:12,365 --> 00:49:13,685

Meagan McGovern: She would

say one kid every time.

:

00:49:13,835 --> 00:49:18,245

But when we all showed up hungry, she's

like, look, you know, it's too much.

:

00:49:18,245 --> 00:49:18,755

It's too much.

:

00:49:18,755 --> 00:49:20,255

I can't feed four of you all the time.

:

00:49:20,255 --> 00:49:23,045

Especially if you're all gonna

go and take all my TV dinners.

:

00:49:23,465 --> 00:49:23,855

You know?

:

00:49:23,915 --> 00:49:24,545

I mean she

:

00:49:24,545 --> 00:49:27,455

Nora Gibbs: would, but it was

like one night at at a time.

:

00:49:27,455 --> 00:49:30,335

But like mom would sometimes drop me

off there for like three or four days.

:

00:49:30,395 --> 00:49:30,665

Meagan McGovern: Right.

:

00:49:30,785 --> 00:49:31,565

Oh, well lucky you.

:

00:49:31,565 --> 00:49:32,555

At least you got a break.

:

00:49:33,095 --> 00:49:33,425

Nora Gibbs: Yeah.

:

00:49:34,175 --> 00:49:34,685

Meagan McGovern: Um.

:

00:49:34,730 --> 00:49:34,790

A

:

00:49:35,060 --> 00:49:35,360

Nora Gibbs: lot,

:

00:49:35,720 --> 00:49:39,740

Meagan McGovern: but out of all that,

I mean, so that's where we ended up and

:

00:49:39,740 --> 00:49:43,310

that's kind of, you know, this, this is

one of the, that was one of the weirdest,

:

00:49:43,310 --> 00:49:46,581

most chaotic things in all of it.

:

00:49:46,586 --> 00:49:50,120

Nora Gibbs: The Oregon, the Oregon

experience is one of those things.

:

00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:54,740

When people say, oh, you look, you know,

whenever Oregon comes up, I always say,

:

00:49:54,740 --> 00:49:56,090

oh my God, I lived in Oregon as a kid.

:

00:49:56,090 --> 00:49:56,840

I loved Oregon.

:

00:49:56,840 --> 00:49:57,560

I was so pretty.

:

00:49:57,890 --> 00:49:58,910

Like, oh, where did you live?

:

00:49:58,910 --> 00:50:02,330

I'm like, oh, I lived in Medford and I

lived outside of, you know, in talent.

:

00:50:02,750 --> 00:50:04,400

And they were like, well,

how long did you live there?

:

00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:08,330

I'm like, and in my head I'm thinking,

I must have lived there a couple years,

:

00:50:08,390 --> 00:50:11,060

not three months total for both houses.

:

00:50:11,090 --> 00:50:11,330

Right.

:

00:50:11,335 --> 00:50:13,010

Meagan McGovern: And I

mean, things going on.

:

00:50:13,010 --> 00:50:19,730

Like when I was at the high school, the

boys football team went to the state

:

00:50:19,730 --> 00:50:25,400

championship and I didn't know what a

big deal that was because I went to this

:

00:50:25,610 --> 00:50:28,550

weird zoo magnet high school where they

obviously didn't have football team,

:

00:50:28,820 --> 00:50:32,600

but for your school to win the state

champion, go to state champion was huge.

:

00:50:32,630 --> 00:50:33,890

It was a, that's a big deal.

:

00:50:33,890 --> 00:50:34,070

Big deal.

:

00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:38,180

And I kind of wish I could have

been a part of that and been friends

:

00:50:38,180 --> 00:50:41,090

there and liked people there and

and gotten to connect people.

:

00:50:41,090 --> 00:50:44,540

But I mean, it was such a

blur and it was just so out of

:

00:50:44,540 --> 00:50:45,560

it and I was so overwhelmed.

:

00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:49,130

There was one guy I talked to that I

was sort of friends with and a couple

:

00:50:49,130 --> 00:50:52,190

of girls I remember having conversations

with, but I never managed to.

:

00:50:52,580 --> 00:50:55,040

It takes longer than that to connect.

:

00:50:55,700 --> 00:50:57,920

Nora Gibbs: I will say one thing

we did in Oregon that I absolutely

:

00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:01,490

love that mom introduced us to was

the Asheville Shakespeare Festival.

:

00:51:01,820 --> 00:51:02,435

Meagan McGovern: Oh, yeah, yeah.

:

00:51:02,540 --> 00:51:04,010

Nora Gibbs: Ashland, sorry, the Ashland.

:

00:51:04,100 --> 00:51:04,280

Yeah.

:

00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:07,700

Ashland, Oregon had this incredible

Shakespeare festival and I remember

:

00:51:07,700 --> 00:51:10,160

going for a weekend, or I don't

know if it was like just one full

:

00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:13,130

day, but there was a woman, and I'll

never forget it, I was 10 years old

:

00:51:13,430 --> 00:51:15,020

and she was in a unicorn costume.

:

00:51:15,020 --> 00:51:15,080

No,

:

00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:16,430

Meagan McGovern: that's my memory.

:

00:51:16,940 --> 00:51:17,300

Nora Gibbs: How do you

:

00:51:17,300 --> 00:51:17,960

Meagan McGovern: remember that?

:

00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:19,310

Nora Gibbs: I was with you?

:

00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:21,080

Meagan McGovern: That

was the most incredible.

:

00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:22,850

It was a solid blue.

:

00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:23,029

What?

:

00:51:23,299 --> 00:51:23,990

It's your memory.

:

00:51:23,990 --> 00:51:24,290

We were

:

00:51:24,290 --> 00:51:24,799

Nora Gibbs: together.

:

00:51:24,799 --> 00:51:25,850

We had the same memory.

:

00:51:25,850 --> 00:51:26,095

I don't

:

00:51:26,100 --> 00:51:26,270

Meagan McGovern: remember.

:

00:51:26,270 --> 00:51:27,920

I remember it being for parade.

:

00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:31,009

I thought it was, I was gonna say it

was the, I was gonna say I remember

:

00:51:31,009 --> 00:51:32,720

the Halloween play parade in Ashland.

:

00:51:32,779 --> 00:51:36,230

I, my favorite memory is, it was the

Ashland of the Uniform Shakespeare

:

00:51:36,230 --> 00:51:36,770

Festival.

:

00:51:36,830 --> 00:51:37,130

Meagan McGovern: Okay.

:

00:51:37,460 --> 00:51:40,490

But whatever it, it was, whether it was,

I thought it was Halloween, but either

:

00:51:40,490 --> 00:51:45,830

way, we saw this parade and the girl

was in a catsuit, a blue satin catsuit.

:

00:51:46,490 --> 00:51:46,730

Yep.

:

00:51:46,790 --> 00:51:48,380

But somehow she was also a unicorn.

:

00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:49,370

Nora Gibbs: I dunno.

:

00:51:49,370 --> 00:51:51,980

She just had the most incredible

makeup and she had this beautiful

:

00:51:51,980 --> 00:51:54,770

like body of like a ballerina dancer.

:

00:51:54,770 --> 00:51:57,950

And she just had this

incredible headdress in a tail.

:

00:51:57,950 --> 00:52:00,049

Meagan McGovern: It was, it

was the most beautiful costume.

:

00:52:00,194 --> 00:52:00,515

Unbelievable.

:

00:52:00,650 --> 00:52:02,720

I've, it was the most beautiful

costume I've ever seen.

:

00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:03,290

It's funny.

:

00:52:03,650 --> 00:52:03,710

Yeah.

:

00:52:03,710 --> 00:52:07,430

To this day, 40 years later, you mention

Ashland and that's what we remember.

:

00:52:07,924 --> 00:52:10,865

Nora Gibbs: I know, and it's so

funny how like, you know, the kids

:

00:52:10,865 --> 00:52:14,254

these days are very, the kids these

days are very into core memories.

:

00:52:14,314 --> 00:52:14,404

Right.

:

00:52:14,404 --> 00:52:17,975

And that is one of my core memories of

Oregon was this beautiful woman at a

:

00:52:17,975 --> 00:52:20,194

Asheville or Ashland Shakespeare Festival.

:

00:52:20,225 --> 00:52:20,434

Mine

:

00:52:20,434 --> 00:52:20,644

Meagan McGovern: too.

:

00:52:20,644 --> 00:52:23,495

I mean that, that costume, it must

have been something, I wonder if we

:

00:52:23,495 --> 00:52:25,024

saw it now, if we'd be like, whatever.

:

00:52:25,414 --> 00:52:28,174

But I know it was pretty amazing.

:

00:52:28,894 --> 00:52:29,194

Nora Gibbs: Yeah.

:

00:52:29,584 --> 00:52:35,254

And so we ended up in Sherman Oaks,

California, and we ended up in a house

:

00:52:35,285 --> 00:52:37,984

that again had a ridiculously large yard.

:

00:52:38,075 --> 00:52:43,475

It had a swimming pool in the backyard,

and it was close enough to the Sherman

:

00:52:43,475 --> 00:52:45,274

Oaks Galleria that we could walk there.

:

00:52:45,425 --> 00:52:50,135

Meagan McGovern: Well I think, um, we

can get into what happened on Morrison

:

00:52:50,135 --> 00:52:51,905

Street and rest of it in, in next time.

:

00:52:51,905 --> 00:52:56,825

But I think this is an interesting thing

'cause this was kind of for me at least

:

00:52:57,725 --> 00:53:04,685

before I left, 'cause I left home at 18 or

19, so I only had another two years there.

:

00:53:05,165 --> 00:53:10,115

This was not the absolute worst thing

that ever happened to me, but it was kind

:

00:53:10,115 --> 00:53:12,425

of the worst that we were as a family.

:

00:53:12,875 --> 00:53:13,415

I mean,

:

00:53:14,525 --> 00:53:18,815

Nora Gibbs: I think that this was like,

I think that the Oregon situation for you

:

00:53:19,055 --> 00:53:23,705

was one of the things that kind of started

you thinking, I don't wanna be in this

:

00:53:23,705 --> 00:53:26,255

family forever and this isn't good for me.

:

00:53:26,735 --> 00:53:28,505

Meagan McGovern: Not only that,

it started me thinking that I

:

00:53:28,505 --> 00:53:30,065

couldn't protect you guys anymore.

:

00:53:30,095 --> 00:53:34,235

I think even mom got scared because

she realized that once you move

:

00:53:34,535 --> 00:53:37,895

away from, she didn't want anybody

to find out how bad things were.

:

00:53:38,585 --> 00:53:42,965

But once you move away from all support

networks, there's no support network.

:

00:53:43,565 --> 00:53:43,775

Right.

:

00:53:43,835 --> 00:53:47,075

You know, you, you might wanna hide

what you're doing from people to keep

:

00:53:47,075 --> 00:53:51,215

them from, you know, keeping your kids,

taking your kids away or whatever it is.

:

00:53:51,215 --> 00:53:55,955

But man, there's no support network when

you're out in the middle of nowhere.

:

00:53:56,795 --> 00:53:57,005

Nora Gibbs: Yeah.

:

00:53:57,005 --> 00:53:59,825

I mean, it's that, you know,

it's that whole thing that you

:

00:53:59,825 --> 00:54:00,905

know the whole fuck around.

:

00:54:00,905 --> 00:54:01,565

You find out.

:

00:54:01,865 --> 00:54:02,220

Meagan McGovern: Yeah, exactly.

:

00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:06,425

And I think that was, I mean, what we did

end up, I mean, the Adirondacks were like

:

00:54:06,425 --> 00:54:10,895

this too later, but we created our own

support network there and we were older

:

00:54:10,895 --> 00:54:14,225

and we could figure out by that point, I

think we were never gonna do that again.

:

00:54:14,465 --> 00:54:18,065

That was my, I'm never

gonna do this again moment.

:

00:54:18,710 --> 00:54:19,070

Nora Gibbs: Right.

:

00:54:19,070 --> 00:54:20,930

You're, I've had it, I'm done.

:

00:54:20,930 --> 00:54:22,100

This is not happening to me.

:

00:54:22,100 --> 00:54:22,340

Again,

:

00:54:22,370 --> 00:54:25,040

Meagan McGovern: I'm not jump, I'm

not gonna be wrecking cars for her.

:

00:54:25,040 --> 00:54:28,460

I'm not gonna be on the, you

know, on the bandwagon with this.

:

00:54:28,460 --> 00:54:33,410

This is me looking for an exit I had

when we moved back to California, you

:

00:54:33,410 --> 00:54:35,120

know, the challenger, it was January.

:

00:54:35,570 --> 00:54:40,310

I was gonna graduate in

June and that was it.

:

00:54:40,310 --> 00:54:43,220

I was gonna go off to college

and, and go do my thing.

:

00:54:44,390 --> 00:54:45,800

Nora Gibbs: So, well,

a little foreshadowing.

:

00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:48,320

I mean, you had another

year or two left with mom.

:

00:54:48,320 --> 00:54:53,990

I was there for another six years and

Oregon for me is a blip on the radar as

:

00:54:53,990 --> 00:54:59,720

far as when I started being mom's helper.

:

00:54:59,780 --> 00:55:00,020

Right.

:

00:55:00,020 --> 00:55:00,410

With things.

:

00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:00,800

Right.

:

00:55:01,250 --> 00:55:03,020

Meagan McGovern: I think that

was, and I think that was the, the

:

00:55:03,020 --> 00:55:06,350

problem is that if I wasn't gonna

help, well, somebody had to, and I

:

00:55:06,350 --> 00:55:08,060

think Katie took over for a while.

:

00:55:08,060 --> 00:55:08,932

I think Katie was, I think,

:

00:55:09,140 --> 00:55:11,485

Nora Gibbs: I think she just trickled

down the, you know, trickled down

:

00:55:11,630 --> 00:55:13,010

the list of kids that would help her.

:

00:55:13,010 --> 00:55:13,280

It would.

:

00:55:13,670 --> 00:55:16,250

You know, you were kind of like, I'm done.

:

00:55:16,340 --> 00:55:17,270

This was bullshit.

:

00:55:17,270 --> 00:55:18,080

I hated it.

:

00:55:18,080 --> 00:55:20,630

I don't like the way I

felt like to my friends.

:

00:55:20,630 --> 00:55:22,640

I don't like the way it

made me feel as a person.

:

00:55:22,700 --> 00:55:22,850

Yeah.

:

00:55:23,030 --> 00:55:26,540

I mean, 40 years later and you're

still wrapped with guilt about this.

:

00:55:26,630 --> 00:55:28,940

Meagan McGovern: Well, not,

I mean, yes, but also it's

:

00:55:28,940 --> 00:55:29,870

Nora Gibbs: not racked with guilt.

:

00:55:29,870 --> 00:55:30,275

That's not the right thing.

:

00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:30,470

I don't

:

00:55:30,470 --> 00:55:33,020

Meagan McGovern: want, and this is gonna

sound really silly, but I don't want

:

00:55:33,020 --> 00:55:38,450

people to judge me and who I am now on the

fact that I committed a crime when I was

:

00:55:38,630 --> 00:55:42,020

16 and was forced by my mother to do it.

:

00:55:42,020 --> 00:55:45,980

Because I mean, kids do get

convicted of crimes when they're 16.

:

00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:46,790

Nora Gibbs: Okay.

:

00:55:46,790 --> 00:55:49,280

If they're gonna be mad at you

about that, wait till they hear

:

00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:50,510

what happens to me in Australia.

:

00:55:50,900 --> 00:55:54,110

Meagan McGovern: Well, I, I know,

but also you think about these kids.

:

00:55:54,320 --> 00:55:54,590

Okay.

:

00:55:54,590 --> 00:55:57,380

And we're probably way over time here,

but I wanna talk about one thing.

:

00:55:57,470 --> 00:56:01,520

And you think about these kids

who are 16 who get convicted of

:

00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:03,650

crimes and go to jail for them.

:

00:56:04,370 --> 00:56:04,700

Right.

:

00:56:04,820 --> 00:56:08,715

And there was never a chance that

was going to happen to us and.

:

00:56:09,890 --> 00:56:10,625

I am You were a

:

00:56:10,625 --> 00:56:12,385

Nora Gibbs: 16-year-old white

kid that was never happened to

:

00:56:12,385 --> 00:56:12,425

Meagan McGovern: you.

:

00:56:12,425 --> 00:56:13,520

Well, that's what I was gonna say.

:

00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:21,200

A lot of this stuff is absolute

mom is the absolute worst possible

:

00:56:21,200 --> 00:56:23,630

version of white woman privilege,

:

00:56:24,110 --> 00:56:26,030

Nora Gibbs: or the best version,

depending on how you look at it.

:

00:56:26,030 --> 00:56:26,240

Yes,

:

00:56:26,270 --> 00:56:26,900

Meagan McGovern: exactly.

:

00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:30,020

The, the kind that gets away

with the most stuff either way.

:

00:56:30,680 --> 00:56:34,430

And, you know, soar was, and I talk

about this a lot, he's helping me edit

:

00:56:34,430 --> 00:56:37,910

my book and we're reading some stuff

and we had a, a friend of the family,

:

00:56:37,940 --> 00:56:42,920

his name was Kenny, and he was a, a

young black guy who helped my mom.

:

00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:44,330

And it is relevant that he is black.

:

00:56:44,330 --> 00:56:45,080

That's why I'm mentioning it.

:

00:56:45,500 --> 00:56:50,930

He helped my mom with Aarons and, um, help

drive us places every once in a while.

:

00:56:50,930 --> 00:56:55,520

And he was around a lot, but he

thought my mother was fantastic and

:

00:56:55,670 --> 00:56:57,590

he thought she was funny as hell.

:

00:56:57,590 --> 00:57:01,010

And actually after she won on

sale of the century, he said,

:

00:57:01,010 --> 00:57:01,970

well, hell, I can do that.

:

00:57:01,970 --> 00:57:05,750

And he went and won a truck

on Wheel of Fortune, which

:

00:57:05,840 --> 00:57:06,260

Nora Gibbs: Oh my God.

:

00:57:06,350 --> 00:57:08,300

And he went on Wheel of

Fortune and he won the truck.

:

00:57:08,720 --> 00:57:11,540

And they brought his family

out and we were the family.

:

00:57:12,020 --> 00:57:15,770

And Pat Sja said to him, are you

sure we have the right family?

:

00:57:16,550 --> 00:57:19,580

This this young black guy and

these four little blonde girls

:

00:57:19,580 --> 00:57:22,520

and this old white lady, you know,

40-year-old white lady come out.

:

00:57:22,790 --> 00:57:25,040

Pat Sajak and Van White were so confused.

:

00:57:25,040 --> 00:57:25,970

It was so funny.

:

00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:26,120

It

:

00:57:26,120 --> 00:57:26,840

Meagan McGovern: was and all.

:

00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:28,610

So Kenny had come from Houston with us.

:

00:57:28,610 --> 00:57:29,630

When we moved from Houston.

:

00:57:29,720 --> 00:57:32,450

He had kind of followed us out there

or maybe he knew my mom was gonna

:

00:57:32,450 --> 00:57:37,190

be out there and that she was easy

pickings for a good paycheck whenever

:

00:57:37,190 --> 00:57:38,600

he needed a couple of odd jobs.

:

00:57:38,990 --> 00:57:46,250

And he was, um, always willing to,

you know, be ethically challenged

:

00:57:46,250 --> 00:57:49,910

with her whenever she needed

somebody to, to help um right.

:

00:57:49,940 --> 00:57:50,750

Skate some stuff.

:

00:57:50,750 --> 00:57:56,450

But one of the things she would do

is she would go into a pharmacy and

:

00:57:56,720 --> 00:58:00,560

she knew that they were gonna follow

that the guy, the security was gonna

:

00:58:00,560 --> 00:58:01,760

follow Kenny around the pharmacy.

:

00:58:02,465 --> 00:58:06,275

And Kenny would never do anything

illegal and he would never steal

:

00:58:06,275 --> 00:58:07,295

anything in a million years.

:

00:58:07,295 --> 00:58:08,435

He would never just go and steal.

:

00:58:08,915 --> 00:58:12,425

But while the security guard and

the manager were following Kenny

:

00:58:12,425 --> 00:58:16,715

around the pharmacy, mom would be

scooping things into her purse, just

:

00:58:17,075 --> 00:58:17,345

Lord

:

00:58:17,405 --> 00:58:20,765

Meagan McGovern: throwing shit into

her bag anytime she wanted, because

:

00:58:20,795 --> 00:58:24,095

she knew that they were never

even gonna possibly look at her.

:

00:58:24,815 --> 00:58:25,715

What an asshole.

:

00:58:25,880 --> 00:58:26,480

I know.

:

00:58:27,040 --> 00:58:27,360

I know.

:

00:58:27,370 --> 00:58:28,440

She's such an asshole.

:

00:58:28,860 --> 00:58:32,705

Meagan McGovern: And I mean, obviously

that brings up all sorts of things

:

00:58:32,705 --> 00:58:34,985

about putting him in trouble and

everything else, but he wasn't, he

:

00:58:34,985 --> 00:58:40,055

literally just walked into the store

and she used him as a decoy and the

:

00:58:40,055 --> 00:58:43,865

privilege that she had where she could

talk herself out of any situation.

:

00:58:44,255 --> 00:58:50,195

She used to fake heart attacks every

time she was arrested or angina or, I

:

00:58:50,195 --> 00:58:54,155

know, I mean, a, anytime that a cop would

question her, she would do, and they, they

:

00:58:54,335 --> 00:58:56,345

talk about, you know, white woman tears.

:

00:58:56,615 --> 00:58:57,455

My mother would cry.

:

00:58:58,220 --> 00:59:01,760

She would cry and talk about her

husband who left her and who cheated

:

00:59:01,760 --> 00:59:02,960

on her and her four children.

:

00:59:02,960 --> 00:59:05,660

And she was so poor and she had

never done anything like this.

:

00:59:05,660 --> 00:59:09,320

And she's so ashamed and oh my God, I

think I'm having heart palpitations.

:

00:59:09,830 --> 00:59:10,730

And she would walk out.

:

00:59:11,810 --> 00:59:13,970

Nora Gibbs: She reminds me of

the mom from Pride and Prejudice.

:

00:59:14,360 --> 00:59:15,140

Meagan McGovern: Oh yes.

:

00:59:15,500 --> 00:59:16,550

That's a like, yes.

:

00:59:16,550 --> 00:59:17,990

That's probably why I hate the mom.

:

00:59:17,990 --> 00:59:18,710

Pride and prejudice.

:

00:59:18,860 --> 00:59:21,455

My four daughters are

just get them married

:

00:59:21,895 --> 00:59:22,175

daughters,

:

00:59:23,240 --> 00:59:24,170

Meagan McGovern: my nerves.

:

00:59:24,200 --> 00:59:27,050

She would've been so happy if

I had married a billionaire.

:

00:59:28,100 --> 00:59:28,280

Oh my God.

:

00:59:29,450 --> 00:59:34,370

And so the privilege that came with

all of this in that, yes, we got

:

00:59:34,490 --> 00:59:37,460

evicted from these houses, but it

took way longer than it would've

:

00:59:37,460 --> 00:59:38,930

taken anybody else to get evicted.

:

00:59:39,590 --> 00:59:39,920

For sure.

:

00:59:39,920 --> 00:59:45,140

And yes, she could write checks at

the grocery store 5, 6, 8, 10 times

:

00:59:45,140 --> 00:59:46,490

because nobody was looking at her.

:

00:59:46,490 --> 00:59:48,920

Nobody was looking her name

up on the bad checklist.

:

00:59:48,920 --> 00:59:51,830

Like they would've if she were

black or if she were a guy or

:

00:59:51,830 --> 00:59:53,240

if she were, you know, anything.

:

00:59:53,750 --> 00:59:57,650

And anytime she got in trouble,

she would just cry and.

:

00:59:58,265 --> 00:59:59,765

I swear to God they would let her go.

:

01:00:01,265 --> 01:00:03,545

Nora Gibbs: I will say that

I am also very good at that.

:

01:00:04,055 --> 01:00:04,355

Meagan McGovern: Yes.

:

01:00:04,385 --> 01:00:08,225

Nora Gibbs: And that whenever I would

get a ticket growing up, like when I was

:

01:00:08,225 --> 01:00:12,485

older and driving and you know, burst into

tears and that would be my whole thing.

:

01:00:12,575 --> 01:00:13,055

Oh my God.

:

01:00:13,055 --> 01:00:14,045

And there was always a story.

:

01:00:14,285 --> 01:00:17,765

And even to this day, in the back of my

mind, I always have a story ready of why

:

01:00:17,765 --> 01:00:21,515

I'm speeding, if I'm speeding, and what

I'm gonna say to the man to get out of it.

:

01:00:21,575 --> 01:00:24,065

And it's just never been an issue

for me because I know that I

:

01:00:24,065 --> 01:00:25,355

can talk my way out of anything.

:

01:00:25,505 --> 01:00:25,835

Meagan McGovern: Right.

:

01:00:25,955 --> 01:00:29,315

And there is a sense of

that's really fucked up.

:

01:00:29,555 --> 01:00:30,605

That's really Oh, for sure.

:

01:00:30,720 --> 01:00:33,755

And, and that we are abusing this.

:

01:00:34,145 --> 01:00:39,245

But I'm also very good at

using this to raise my voice.

:

01:00:39,275 --> 01:00:40,895

That's one of the things

that I do on Facebook.

:

01:00:40,895 --> 01:00:44,195

That's one of the things that I'm

absolutely passionate about, is talking

:

01:00:44,195 --> 01:00:46,235

about people who don't have this privilege

:

01:00:46,625 --> 01:00:48,215

Nora Gibbs: and using your white

privilege to help people who don't.

:

01:00:48,215 --> 01:00:48,335

Right.

:

01:00:48,635 --> 01:00:48,815

And

:

01:00:48,815 --> 01:00:49,340

Meagan McGovern: using that, I

:

01:00:49,340 --> 01:00:49,980

Nora Gibbs: think that's important.

:

01:00:50,200 --> 01:00:53,735

Rec I think that recognizing

that you have this privilege.

:

01:00:54,215 --> 01:00:58,025

Is the first step to helping other

people who don't have that privilege.

:

01:00:58,175 --> 01:00:58,385

Meagan McGovern: Right.

:

01:00:58,385 --> 01:01:02,705

And I don't know whether mom

would've ever accepted, she was

:

01:01:02,705 --> 01:01:06,455

obviously a really liberal out there,

kind of hippie in her mentality.

:

01:01:06,995 --> 01:01:09,695

Um, but I don't think she ever

would've called that white privilege.

:

01:01:09,695 --> 01:01:11,645

She would've said, that's

just the way the world works.

:

01:01:11,675 --> 01:01:12,395

There's racism.

:

01:01:12,395 --> 01:01:14,135

People are racist, and people are jerks.

:

01:01:14,135 --> 01:01:17,165

And you wanna use their own

prejudices against them.

:

01:01:17,735 --> 01:01:21,875

And now we've come to use

that same terminology as well.

:

01:01:21,875 --> 01:01:22,085

Yeah.

:

01:01:22,085 --> 01:01:26,045

. You use the privilege that you have

to raise up other voices instead

:

01:01:26,045 --> 01:01:27,365

of just taking advantage of.

:

01:01:27,365 --> 01:01:29,825

Mom used it to take advantage

of as much as she could for

:

01:01:29,825 --> 01:01:35,195

herself, and she certainly never

used it to help help others.

:

01:01:35,285 --> 01:01:37,715

I mean, she did to some degree

where she did help Susie.

:

01:01:37,715 --> 01:01:39,695

She did help Tyra, she did help Kenny.

:

01:01:39,695 --> 01:01:40,654

She did help Lenny.

:

01:01:41,390 --> 01:01:45,260

But it wasn't because she was

using her privilege to do that.

:

01:01:45,260 --> 01:01:47,930

It was just because she was like,

sure they can come along for the ride.

:

01:01:47,930 --> 01:01:48,320

Why not?

:

01:01:48,380 --> 01:01:49,865

Nora Gibbs: They were just along

for the ride at that point.

:

01:01:49,865 --> 01:01:50,065

Right.

:

01:01:50,070 --> 01:01:52,790

It wasn't an intentional,

I'm going to use this to help

:

01:01:53,030 --> 01:01:53,240

Meagan McGovern: get out.

:

01:01:53,240 --> 01:01:55,520

No, and, and I don't know that that's

what I do with my writing as an

:

01:01:55,520 --> 01:01:59,540

intentional, anything else, but I do

feel like we have benefited from this

:

01:01:59,540 --> 01:02:05,090

our entire life, this, this concept

of we can get away with anything and

:

01:02:05,840 --> 01:02:08,900

you know, there's no reason we should

be able to get away with anything.

:

01:02:09,560 --> 01:02:12,530

And I think it's important to

remember that not everybody can.

:

01:02:13,640 --> 01:02:16,700

Nora Gibbs: Well, I will say that I

do try to teach my daughter and her

:

01:02:16,700 --> 01:02:21,320

friends how to get away with things,

so I think that that's me helping them,

:

01:02:21,320 --> 01:02:22,940

even though they're all white girls.

:

01:02:23,720 --> 01:02:26,090

But I do try to pass it along

and teach them some of the

:

01:02:26,090 --> 01:02:27,590

things I've, you know, learned.

:

01:02:27,800 --> 01:02:30,350

I think like ago, two nights

ago, we went to the rodeo.

:

01:02:30,710 --> 01:02:31,160

Okay.

:

01:02:31,160 --> 01:02:32,450

Just a stupid little example.

:

01:02:32,450 --> 01:02:34,850

Two nights ago we're at, we went to the

rodeo, we went to saw Brooks and Don.

:

01:02:34,850 --> 01:02:36,170

It was the best time night in my life.

:

01:02:36,170 --> 01:02:37,070

We had such a good time.

:

01:02:37,520 --> 01:02:40,070

And we're leaving the rodeo and we're

going to get in line for something.

:

01:02:40,415 --> 01:02:42,965

And everybody's waiting in

these super long ass lines.

:

01:02:43,050 --> 01:02:43,410

I hate that.

:

01:02:43,430 --> 01:02:46,115

And I was like, I was

like, guys, keep going.

:

01:02:46,205 --> 01:02:49,085

Go to the end of the line and

there's gonna be a shorter line.

:

01:02:49,145 --> 01:02:51,875

Like everybody just kind of stops

and just assumes that that's what

:

01:02:51,875 --> 01:02:53,105

you have to do is wait in line.

:

01:02:53,405 --> 01:02:56,315

So we walk all the way around and there's

a line with two people in there, right?

:

01:02:56,315 --> 01:02:57,485

And they're like, how did you find this?

:

01:02:57,485 --> 01:03:00,035

I'm like, 'cause you don't

do what everybody else does.

:

01:03:00,035 --> 01:03:01,295

You get shit done.

:

01:03:01,565 --> 01:03:04,655

You do things your own way,

you don't follow the crowd.

:

01:03:05,225 --> 01:03:07,025

And I don't know if that's

exactly what you're talking about.

:

01:03:07,025 --> 01:03:07,115

It's,

:

01:03:07,595 --> 01:03:11,465

Meagan McGovern: but here's the

thing with that, would there have

:

01:03:11,465 --> 01:03:14,135

been people who were stopped as

they were walking to the front?

:

01:03:15,935 --> 01:03:19,355

Nora Gibbs: I don't know if I, but I

showed up with three, you know, two

:

01:03:19,355 --> 01:03:22,295

super cute girls and a cute little

white guy who was with us, right?

:

01:03:22,300 --> 01:03:23,220

And we all show up.

:

01:03:23,640 --> 01:03:23,940

It takes

:

01:03:23,940 --> 01:03:24,785

Meagan McGovern: a lot of and and one.

:

01:03:24,785 --> 01:03:26,555

And there is a literally a man

:

01:03:26,555 --> 01:03:29,165

Nora Gibbs: next to me said, wow, you

really looked out on that, didn't you?

:

01:03:29,165 --> 01:03:31,205

And I was like, well, you didn't

fucking stand in this line.

:

01:03:31,205 --> 01:03:32,705

You should, you, this line was open.

:

01:03:32,705 --> 01:03:33,695

You could have gotten in this line.

:

01:03:34,040 --> 01:03:36,200

Nobody expects that kind

of stuff to happen to them.

:

01:03:36,200 --> 01:03:37,430

So they don't get in the good line.

:

01:03:37,460 --> 01:03:38,570

They expect to wait in line.

:

01:03:38,570 --> 01:03:40,100

And I don't ever expect to wait in line.

:

01:03:40,160 --> 01:03:43,520

Meagan McGovern: And I think

there's a, there is a, a sense of,

:

01:03:43,550 --> 01:03:48,290

yes, you should take young girls

and teach them to be assertive.

:

01:03:48,380 --> 01:03:50,660

You should teach them that

they can get away with shit.

:

01:03:51,140 --> 01:03:55,340

And that they should have the confidence

and the assertiveness to speak their

:

01:03:55,340 --> 01:04:00,410

peace and do what they need to get

ahead and to, but it should come with

:

01:04:00,410 --> 01:04:05,030

the expectation and the responsibility

of protecting the people that can't get

:

01:04:05,030 --> 01:04:08,840

that done and the expectation that you're

bringing other people along for the ride.

:

01:04:09,470 --> 01:04:16,910

And, um, you know, I hate to quote JK

Rowland because of what an asshole she

:

01:04:16,910 --> 01:04:22,759

turned out to be, but there is a, you

know, there is a thing in Harry Potter

:

01:04:22,760 --> 01:04:28,670

where Jenny Weasley says, it turns out

from watching, you know, her brothers,

:

01:04:28,730 --> 01:04:32,060

she says, if you just have enough

nerve, you can get away with anything.

:

01:04:32,210 --> 01:04:33,620

And I'm like, oh, for sure.

:

01:04:33,995 --> 01:04:38,765

That's what watching mom like,

I can get away with anything.

:

01:04:39,065 --> 01:04:41,015

Is that something that

you wanna teach people?

:

01:04:41,015 --> 01:04:42,634

I don't know, but it's a truth.

:

01:04:42,634 --> 01:04:42,845

I teach

:

01:04:42,845 --> 01:04:45,305

Nora Gibbs: my daughters that all

the time and they, they always will

:

01:04:45,305 --> 01:04:48,605

like randomly text our little family

chat and they're like, I pulled a

:

01:04:48,605 --> 01:04:50,465

mom today, I got away with this.

:

01:04:50,465 --> 01:04:52,745

Or I totally hack the system.

:

01:04:52,745 --> 01:04:54,065

Or I worked the system.

:

01:04:54,065 --> 01:04:57,395

Like mom would've, mom would've been so

proud of me, mom, you'd be so proud of me.

:

01:04:57,395 --> 01:04:58,565

I worked the system today.

:

01:04:58,625 --> 01:04:59,190

Do you know how?

:

01:04:59,450 --> 01:05:02,015

Um, but when they were little, they would

get irritated when I, the work system.

:

01:05:02,015 --> 01:05:04,715

But now that they're older and they're

learning how to do it themselves, it's

:

01:05:04,715 --> 01:05:06,575

kind of like a, a rite of passage.

:

01:05:06,575 --> 01:05:06,634

Do

:

01:05:06,634 --> 01:05:09,485

Meagan McGovern: you know how mad

I am that so doesn't know how to

:

01:05:09,485 --> 01:05:12,005

do taxes and get the all refund?

:

01:05:12,005 --> 01:05:12,965

And then he had to come to me.

:

01:05:12,965 --> 01:05:16,505

I'm like, dude, you should

not be paying any taxes.

:

01:05:16,505 --> 01:05:18,245

You made $11,000 last year.

:

01:05:18,245 --> 01:05:18,305

Yeah.

:

01:05:18,634 --> 01:05:19,654

What are you doing?

:

01:05:19,654 --> 01:05:21,634

And how do you not know this at 24?

:

01:05:21,634 --> 01:05:23,735

Let's, let's get you the re refund.

:

01:05:23,735 --> 01:05:26,315

And I'm like, how do you not

know how to work a system here?

:

01:05:26,855 --> 01:05:28,085

Nora Gibbs: Yeah, you gotta work a system.

:

01:05:28,175 --> 01:05:32,075

I, if I think that on episode seven we're

gonna talk about working this system.

:

01:05:32,885 --> 01:05:34,025

Meagan McGovern: We're gonna

have a lesson at working.

:

01:05:34,025 --> 01:05:34,475

I think that's, yeah.

:

01:05:34,745 --> 01:05:35,825

There's a lot we can do.

:

01:05:36,395 --> 01:05:37,415

We can teach classes,

:

01:05:38,105 --> 01:05:40,175

Nora Gibbs: but I think

we gotta wrap this one up.

:

01:05:40,235 --> 01:05:40,295

Yeah.

:

01:05:40,325 --> 01:05:43,654

For people who are driving their

car in about to, I don't know.

:

01:05:44,045 --> 01:05:48,995

Um, but we are, so next week I think

we're gonna talk a little bit about

:

01:05:48,995 --> 01:05:52,175

some things that happen in this

house in Sherman Oaks that are kind

:

01:05:52,175 --> 01:05:53,285

of uncomfortable to talk about.

:

01:05:53,825 --> 01:05:57,005

Um, it's not gonna be super

happy cheerful the whole episode.

:

01:05:57,005 --> 01:05:57,335

No,

:

01:05:57,395 --> 01:06:00,245

Meagan McGovern: but I will say this and

I wanna make sure that everybody knows.

:

01:06:01,865 --> 01:06:05,915

One of our sisters has said that we

are not, I can't remember diving deep

:

01:06:05,915 --> 01:06:08,435

or that we're, we're sugarcoating,

we're sugarcoating things.

:

01:06:08,975 --> 01:06:12,845

There are some really bad things in

these stories and in our childhood

:

01:06:12,845 --> 01:06:14,225

that we are not talking about.

:

01:06:14,225 --> 01:06:15,245

And it is deliberate.

:

01:06:15,875 --> 01:06:20,315

And I think in one episode

we will dive deep into that.

:

01:06:20,465 --> 01:06:27,154

But I want it to be done

thoughtfully with care and with the

:

01:06:27,154 --> 01:06:30,035

understanding that anybody listening

knows what they're getting into.

:

01:06:30,605 --> 01:06:31,115

And.

:

01:06:31,549 --> 01:06:34,190

Is prepared for it, because I don't

wanna just throw that kind of stuff

:

01:06:34,190 --> 01:06:37,160

out there and just be like, Hey, we're

gonna talk about this in a podcast.

:

01:06:37,160 --> 01:06:38,210

That's kind of light and chipper.

:

01:06:38,930 --> 01:06:39,140

Right.

:

01:06:39,140 --> 01:06:39,440

You know?

:

01:06:39,740 --> 01:06:42,950

And so, yeah, we can dive into some of the

stuff next week, which is still not the,

:

01:06:43,790 --> 01:06:46,879

Nora Gibbs: it's not the bad stuff, but

there is, you know, just as a pre-warning,

:

01:06:46,879 --> 01:06:50,029

there are some things that happen in

the next episode with a grown man who's

:

01:06:50,029 --> 01:06:53,810

slightly famous that, um, tries to

take advantage of one of our sisters.

:

01:06:54,079 --> 01:06:54,259

Yeah.

:

01:06:54,288 --> 01:06:57,350

So we'll get into that on

the next episode, and I

:

01:06:57,350 --> 01:06:58,459

think it's an important one.

:

01:06:58,459 --> 01:07:01,820

I think that, um, you know, these

things need to be talked about.

:

01:07:01,999 --> 01:07:03,350

Speaking of white privilege.

:

01:07:03,560 --> 01:07:03,799

Meagan McGovern: Yeah.

:

01:07:04,310 --> 01:07:07,339

Nora Gibbs: This is one of the most,

uh, privileged men in America, so,

:

01:07:07,820 --> 01:07:08,089

Meagan McGovern: yeah.

:

01:07:08,390 --> 01:07:09,020

Well, not now.

:

01:07:09,020 --> 01:07:09,200

Now.

:

01:07:09,200 --> 01:07:09,709

There's so many.

:

01:07:09,709 --> 01:07:09,860

Not

:

01:07:09,860 --> 01:07:10,220

Nora Gibbs: now.

:

01:07:10,520 --> 01:07:11,555

Now he's just, oh, son.

:

01:07:11,555 --> 01:07:12,020

I'm a bitch.

:

01:07:12,169 --> 01:07:12,409

Meagan McGovern: Yeah.

:

01:07:13,549 --> 01:07:13,940

All right.

:

01:07:13,940 --> 01:07:16,669

Well, thank you for

listening to Forever Wild.

:

01:07:17,869 --> 01:07:19,579

Nora Gibbs: If you enjoyed

this episode, let us know.

:

01:07:19,640 --> 01:07:22,159

Leave us a review, find Megan

on Facebook, or share it with

:

01:07:22,159 --> 01:07:23,329

someone who loves a good story.

:

01:07:23,839 --> 01:07:25,070

Meagan McGovern: We would

love to hear from you.

:

01:07:25,279 --> 01:07:26,360

Um, and we really would.

:

01:07:26,360 --> 01:07:27,140

I'm not getting enough.

:

01:07:27,545 --> 01:07:30,395

You know, feedback on what people

like and don't like, and I would

:

01:07:30,395 --> 01:07:33,904

love to see some reviews so that

I know what we're doing right.

:

01:07:34,025 --> 01:07:37,535

And send us your stories, your

questions, your thoughts, um, what

:

01:07:37,535 --> 01:07:38,465

you'd like to hear more about.

:

01:07:39,575 --> 01:07:41,404

Nora Gibbs: And I do love the

text messages I get from you.

:

01:07:41,404 --> 01:07:44,195

Those of you who are listening to this

with the little tidbits that you liked

:

01:07:44,195 --> 01:07:46,955

and didn't like, and I am sharing them

with Megan, and I think they're so fun.

:

01:07:47,135 --> 01:07:47,285

Meagan McGovern: Yeah, they're

:

01:07:47,525 --> 01:07:49,565

Nora Gibbs: But until

next time, stay wild.

:

01:07:49,745 --> 01:07:50,255

Meagan McGovern: Bye.

:

01:07:54,815 --> 01:07:54,845

Okay.

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About the Podcast

Forever Wild
Stories from the McGovern Girls
Forever Wild is a memoir podcast about four sisters, a con artist mother, and a childhood spent on the run. From mafia bars to game shows, mental hospitals to Australia, it’s a story of survival, chaos, and the search for home. Hosted by sisters Meagan McGovern and Nora Gibbs, this deeply personal series blends dark humor, nostalgia, and raw honesty in a journey you won’t forget.

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Meagan McGovern