Episode 10

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Published on:

20th May 2025

Onion bagels, a Chateau, and death by spork: Christmas with Maureen

In this unforgettable episode of Forever Wild, Meagan and Nora dive into the surreal, hilarious, and heartbreaking days surrounding their mother Maureen’s near-feature on America’s Most Wanted, her mysterious arrests, and the chaotic aftermath that spanned Hilton Head, upstate New York, and a chateau in the English countryside.

Nora recalls working underage at a piano bar, being approached by law enforcement about her mom, and fleeing Hilton Head with Katie.

Meanwhile, Maureen and Morgain vanish to Europe—with a trail of theft, fake IDs, and outrageous spending behind them. Nora shares the story of flying to England with onion bagels in tow, only to end up in a foster home after Maureen is arrested once again. The episode climaxes with a suicide call over a missing Christmas present and the swallowing of a spork—an event so absurd it’s almost funny… eventually.

With laughter, grief, and sisterly honesty, this episode explores what it means to survive a childhood full of instability, emotional manipulation, and a mother who somehow always managed to walk away from consequenses.

Transcript
Meagan McGovern:

Hi.

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Welcome to Forever Wild, a podcast

about family memory and the

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stories that shape who we become.

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I'm Megan McGovern, the

oldest of Four Sisters.

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Nora Gibbs: And I'm Nora Gibbs,

the sourdough expert in the family.

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Together we're sharing our journey,

growing up with an actor father, a

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mother who didn't think the rules

applied to her, at least financially

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and a childhood full of chaos,

adventure, and unforgettable moments.

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Meagan McGovern: Every episode we

tell stories about our childhood and

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we talk about how siblings who come

from the same families can see their

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past in very different ways and how we

carry that forward in our lives today.

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Nora Gibbs: Thank you for joining us.

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This is forever wild.

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Meagan McGovern: You may be

the sourdough expert, but uh,

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I'm the gluten-free expert.

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Can you do your sourdough gluten-free?

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Nora Gibbs: Absolutely not.

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That sounds terrible.

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Like how do you even do that?

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It's

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Meagan McGovern: terrible.

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I can make it and it looks really

good, and it's got a crispy crust,

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but it doesn't taste like bread.

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It tastes like I'm like,

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Nora Gibbs: I'm recently addicted

to making sourdough bread.

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I have a friend, hi Robin, who

listens to the podcast and she

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gave me a sourdough starter.

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And this sourdough starter

is almost as old as you.

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It's from 1847.

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Meagan McGovern: Well, there

are no gluten-free sourdough

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starters that are that old.

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I, you know what it tastes like all

the gluten-free bread tastes like.

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Popcorn, peanuts.

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It, it tastes like it wants to be bread.

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It wants to be bread and it wants

to be delicious and it's just not,

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Nora Gibbs: it's sourdough

bread with an identity crisis.

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Yeah.

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Yes.

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Nope.

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Anyway, I've been making a lot

of sourdough the last couple of

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weeks, so it's been a lot of fun.

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Meagan McGovern: So at the end of the

last podcast, we were talking about how

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we were all in upstate New York and we had

just got, you guys had just gotten back

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from Australia and it was kind of a mess.

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And finally, mom checked herself into a

mental hospital for month and you went to

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go stay with her aunt and Uncle Houston?

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Nora Gibbs: Morgan lived with you, right?

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Morgan moved in with you guys?

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Meagan McGovern: Morgan stayed

with us and I mean, I feel

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guilty about it because I was 19.

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I feel guilty about it.

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I was, I felt really resentful of her

because she was 15 and I didn't want.

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A 15-year-old with needs and

wants living with me, and I

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wasn't sure how to support her.

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And my rent was 300 a month and Katie

and I each had to come up with 150 a

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month and some months I couldn't do that.

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I mean, I was waiting tables

and going to school full time.

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And the idea of having, I was eating

leftover pizza Hut pizza every

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night, so that was what I ate.

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I gained like 15 pounds and first

couple months I lived there.

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And the idea of having to feed Morgan.

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I didn't have a car.

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I had no way of driving her around.

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And I don't couldn't, I can't remember

whether she went to school or not.

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I can't remember a lot

of details from there.

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But yeah, she lived with us, but

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Nora Gibbs: I don't think she,

I don't think she went to, it

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Meagan McGovern: was Summer Falls.

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It was summertime.

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Oh,

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Nora Gibbs: okay.

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Yeah.

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Meagan McGovern: Yeah.

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And so that's what it was.

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So by the end of the summer, um, this

must have been:

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of the summer, you guys were gone.

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Nora Gibbs: At some point mom

decided that she wanted to move

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us to move to South Carolina.

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I don't know why South Carolina,

she had a friend, I think sis,

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Meagan McGovern: she had a friend there.

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She had a friend there from another time.

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I don't know why she

picked South Carolina.

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She maybe thought it was cheap.

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But yeah, you guys went down

there and Katie stayed with me.

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Nora Gibbs: Yeah, so Morgan and mom

and I got in a car, I don't remember

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what car it was, and we drove to

South Carolina and we stopped in this

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little town and it was a town called

Chapins Chapins, South Carolina.

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We went to dinner with one of mom's

friends and she lived in the area

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and we rented a little house the next

day in Chapin, South Carolina and it

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was just a little two bedroom house.

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And I, I got really sick in that house.

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I had a really bad cough and we didn't

have any money to go to the doctor.

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So I remember coughing a lot in

this house, which is so bizarre.

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But we were in this house for like

three weeks tops, and I coughed

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the whole time we were there.

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Um, and the movie Heathers

had just come out.

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So this is like that timeline, you know?

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And I thought that was

the best movie ever.

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Huge Winona Rider fan

because of that movie.

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But mom had.

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Started stealing.

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I don't know who she was stealing from,

but she was stealing enough that the

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police had come over to question her a

couple of times about different things.

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Some of it was like antique,

some of it was jewelry.

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I'm not sure where she

was getting this from.

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Morgan and I actually enrolled

in the high school there for.

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I literally, I think we went

to class for three days.

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Like this was the like least amount of

class I've ever gone to in a high school.

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I think it was three days

we went to high school.

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Meagan McGovern: But she wouldn't

have enrolled you unless she

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thought you were gonna stay there.

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I think she thought we

were gonna stay there

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Nora Gibbs: and she was really excited

about living in South Carolina.

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And it was a cool little town.

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I mean, it was on the water or near

the water or a lake or something.

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It was a pretty, and we

met, there were some.

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Guys across the street that, you know,

Morgan and I went out like cruising

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in their car with these guys and one

got mad at me 'cause I wanted to make

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out with him, but it was like, you

know, it was this weird, you know.

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Um, but we went to high school.

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Oh.

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And then I found out the next day

in high school, like the first

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day that he had a girlfriend.

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And I'm like, oh, I'm glad

I didn't make out with you.

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You know?

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Um, but anyway, so the police

came by and started questioning

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mom and for they left right.

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And very quickly after we left, I.

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We got in the car and mom

decided, you know, this actually

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is not gonna work out for us.

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And we literally got in the car at night

and drove out in the middle of the night.

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Meagan McGovern: I'm surprised that

they found her that fast and that that

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within three weeks that, I mean, usually

we could stay in a place months before

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anybody paid any attention to mom.

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Well,

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Nora Gibbs: this was a very small town.

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I don't even know if you

Googled JA in South Carolina.

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I don't know what comes up,

but it's not a very big town.

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And I think that it was just, oh

yeah, the woman with the two kids that

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just moved in pretty easy to find.

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Right.

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Meagan McGovern: But she

stayed in South Carolina.

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You, she didn't say like, south

Carolina's not for me, just this town.

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Right.

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Nora Gibbs: Just this town.

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So we got in the car and we drove and

we went to a, she had heard about this

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really gorgeous place a couple of hours

away, and it was called Hilton Head,

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Hilton Head Island, South Carolina.

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And we drove to Hilton Head and

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Meagan McGovern: I mean, it's just like

fricking Greenwich and you know, Westport

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and all these places where she just.

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She's gotta pick the richest, most

ridiculous places in the country.

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Hilton Head is not a cheap place to live.

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Nora Gibbs: No, it's not.

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I mean, Hilton Head is, you know,

it's a golf course community.

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It's a beautiful, wonderful

place to live if you have money.

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Otherwise it kind of sucks.

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Um, but so we got, got your money

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Meagan McGovern: and you're white

and Republican and you like to golf.

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This is true.

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And you're not a mom, none of that, right?

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I mean, none of that is.

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Like a good fit.

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I don't know why that would

be a good fit for you.

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Nora Gibbs: So we got a little

condo and we were in this

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condo, I wanna say a month.

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We were in the condo for about a month.

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Um, it was just me and Morgan and

mom, and we didn't pay the rent.

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And I think the mom had promised them,

Hey, let me move in and I'll send you,

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I have, I'll give you half the rent

now and half the rent in two weeks.

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'cause we didn't live

in this condo very long.

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Like two or three weeks,

actually not even a month.

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And.

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By the end of that time, before our rent,

before we were even due to get out, the

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women that the woman and her sister who

owned the condo came to our apartment

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or the condo and I was there and Morgan

was there and they were banging on

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the door and they were like, Maureen,

we know you're selling our things.

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'cause it was a fully furnished apartment.

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Foley furnish condo and they had an

owner's closet and in the owner's closet,

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mom had picked open the owner's closet.

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And in the owner's closet there

was like a really two or three

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really nice sets of golf clubs.

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There were a bunch of like really

nice things that the owners use.

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Right, right.

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And mom had hacked into that closet

somehow and placed online ads and

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sold all of this stuff online.

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Not online, sorry, in the newspaper.

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'cause online didn't exist that.

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We were like, what the flip is she doing?

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That's our stuff.

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And they, you know, they're like,

she was like, call this number.

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And the women found out

that mom was selling this.

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So they evicted us like

immediately and called the police

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and it was a whole big thing.

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So we left there and we went

to a very sensible house after

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that, right on the beach.

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It was a beach house, of course it was.

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Um, and we moved to this beach house and.

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It was a really cool house,

but it was like this one, it

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was like an A-frame type house.

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It had like giant living room

kitchen and then four bedrooms,

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so like two bedrooms off the side

with each one had its own bathroom.

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And we needed four bedrooms.

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'cause it was me and mom and

Morgan and Katie was coming

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to live with us because Katie?

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Meagan McGovern: No, I'm

gonna talk about this part.

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Okay.

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Talk

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Nora Gibbs: about

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Meagan McGovern: this.

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But this is later though, isn't it?

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I mean,

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Nora Gibbs: no, this is all

within like a month or so of

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us getting into Hilton Head.

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Meagan McGovern: Okay, so this

is, you're right, so this is

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the summer, the fall of 89.

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Nora Gibbs: Yeah.

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Meagan McGovern: Because, okay.

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So, and Morgan and I were

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Nora Gibbs: enrolled in high school.

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We went to Hilton Head

High School at this time.

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Meagan McGovern: Okay.

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So two things I was gonna say.

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One is that the whole thing with mom

selling stuff is, is kind of a theme.

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And I I, and also with landlords chasing

down, two things I don't think that I

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ever talked about in this one was when

we were, when I was in high school.

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Um, when we lived on Morrison Street in,

in California, when I was a senior, and

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this is the whole, during like the whole

Ben Stein episode and all that, we were

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way behind on the rent and, you know,

six months behind on the rent probably.

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And we were getting evicted.

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And I remember mom made me go and talk

to the landlord with Josh, my boyfriend.

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Hmm.

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I was 16 and he was 17.

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And I think I went, he went with me

just because he was, he had a car

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and I had to go talk to the landlord

about why we were behind on rent.

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And I remember Josh's parents

being pretty horrified by that.

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Like why was cash in a, in an attorney?

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I think the lawyer, I think the landlord

was an attorney or something, who knows.

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But I had to go in there and talk to them.

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And Josh's parents were not impressed.

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I think.

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I wasn't impressed that Josh

told his parents, but I.

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So that was like one

thing that I remember.

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Mom was always having us

take care of stuff like that.

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'cause she would not confront

a landlord or anybody else.

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And the other thing with selling

things is one of like my core

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memories is that everything nice

that we ever owned, that was mine.

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Mom would sell.

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Yes.

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And it wouldn't, I didn't even care that I

didn't have nice things, but I cared that.

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She would give me something nice and I

would think I had something fantastic.

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So like we're talking about computers.

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I had a computer in 1985 and it was

one of the coolest computers ever.

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She might have even won

it on sale of the century.

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Um, but it was a little tiny computer

that ran off of a little tiny disc

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and it played an amazing game.

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And that's pretty much all it could do.

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It was way less powerful than a phone.

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It could play one game at a time and

it kind of had a word processor on it.

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And, one day I got home from school,

it was gone and she had sold it and

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she didn't tell me she had sold it.

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I can't remember what she said she did

to it, but you know, I think if she

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needed money, things just disappeared.

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And the other, she sold

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Nora Gibbs: my um, Mme.

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Alexander collection.

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Meagan McGovern: Oh, I believe that

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Nora Gibbs: When we were in California,

like Aunt Maggie and the Aunt Nora,

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everybody, like I had always loved amount

of Alexander dolls 'cause little Maggie

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had like this whole beautiful collection.

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And so people started giving them

to me for gifts or like, oh it just

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'cause you know, they really liked

me 'cause I'm, I was pretty cool.

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And they would give me like these

dolls and they were beautiful.

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And I came home from school one day

and I had them all on a shelf lined up

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in my room and they were beautiful and

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Meagan McGovern: they were gone.

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And one of the reasons I'm writing

a memoir instead of just doing a

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podcast is 'cause there are a lot

of layers and themes and, and core

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stories that weave throughout this

whole tale instead of just saying,

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Hey, this happened and this happened.

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So one of the big identifying

things in this is that everybody in

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the family was always mad at mom.

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Right.

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And I mean, they should be,

but they also adored her.

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I mean, we have sisters that

we adore and we're mad at, and.

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I understand all of the themes that

go through this, but when her mother

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died, I was 13 and my mom's mother,

her name was Eva Golumbeski, and

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she and her mother had a really

fractured relationship for a long time.

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But my mother had gone out when she

was dying and went to take care of her.

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And the belief in the family is that she

went out there to steal all the jewelry.

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Right.

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And I don't know if that was the

main point of my mom going out

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there, but it certainly didn't hurt.

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And when she came back after the funeral,

she had some jewelry from my grandparents

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and my grandmother and grandparent

father were not super, super wealthy, but

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so they had come from a coal mine,

and my grandfather worked as a coal

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miner and he had ended up with a

house in Scarsdale, New York and.

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He had been able to gift my grandmother

some nice pieces of jewelry, not, you

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know, $20,000 pieces, but nice pieces.

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And there was one that he must have

given her for an anniversary present

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or something, and it was a solid gold

disc with a sailing ship on it because

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he was in the Merchant Marine and it

had pearls and it was very guarding

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and ugly, but it was also really cool.

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And there was a solid gold bracelet that

was a gold braid that was like a half

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inch around, and mom came back and there

were probably 10 or 15 pieces, but she

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gave those two to me specifically and told

me those were our family heirlooms and

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that they were mine, and that I should

treasure them and keep them forever.

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And because we had had a house

fire, because of all the loss,

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I was like, I am going to hold

onto these until the day I die.

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These are gonna be my heirlooms to pass

down to my great, great grandchildren.

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I don't think I ever

would've noticed otherwise.

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If she had just said,

here's some cool jewelry.

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They would've just been in the background.

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But because she told 'em they were mine

to hold onto them, it was a big deal.

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And you know, they disappeared.

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They were gone and all of

grandma's jewelry was gone.

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And at some point, aunt no.

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And Aunt Maggie realized

that jewelry was gone.

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It might have been a year later when they

asked, you know, their dad about it and

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he said, oh, I don't know what happened.

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I don't know how long it took.

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But they realized that mom had taken it.

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And I know that Aunt Maggie went to

mom and said, just tell me where it is.

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Tell me where you pawned it.

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Tell me right what happened to it.

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And mom said, I don't know

what you're talking about.

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I never saw any drawing.

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Nora Gibbs: And they wouldn't tell.

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She wouldn't tell 'em.

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And I know that that's still

a big point of contention.

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Yeah,

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Meagan McGovern: that's still

a big, I mean, I don't, one of

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them cares, one of them doesn't.

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But that's the kind of shit that leaves

lasting, you know, rifts in families.

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Nora Gibbs: I, I mean, my kids would

be furious if one of them did something

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and the other one wouldn't tell her.

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I mean, I can, I can see that.

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You know, the whole weird thing

about our family is that now I

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have perspective on a lot of this.

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Yeah.

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You know, growing up and you're

in the middle of it and you're

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like, oh, it's not that big a deal.

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Right.

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It's fine.

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And now that I'm like, oh my God, like my

mother-in-law, she has a lot of jewelry

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and like, it's in our safe right now.

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And like if somebody came in and just took

it and like fold it, I'd be like, whoa.

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You know what I mean?

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Like, I can't even imagine.

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Meagan McGovern: So when you say

something like, you know, oh, she

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stole from the owner's closet.

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Some people are gonna be like,

oh, well that's very shocking.

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And to us it probably

wasn't shocking at all.

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It was

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Nora Gibbs: like, for

me, it wasn't a big deal.

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I'm like, well, they shouldn't

have left this stuff here

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if they didn't want it gone.

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Like, I didn't.

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Right.

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Also, like I didn't know what

an owner's closet was back then.

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Like I kind of had an idea, but I

didn't realize, like now I have family

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that has an owner's closet and places

they rent out and I'm like, oh my God.

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That would be horrific if that

happened to them, you know?

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Meagan McGovern: Well, and

we also talk about, you know.

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To be fair said, I did not know she

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Nora Gibbs: did that at the time, until

the women came knocking on the door.

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Meagan McGovern: Well, yeah, but also

mom would say stuff like, well, it's

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only stuff, it's only belongings.

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Who cares about stuff?

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It's insurance.

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Insurance will take care.

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And I, well, and for a long time we

thought mom didn't steal from people.

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She only stole from insurance companies.

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She only did scams that

wouldn't hurt individuals.

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He had, she started stealing from

a lot of people, a lot of people.

376

:

I knew that's, that's, that

was what made this difference.

377

:

I mean,

378

:

Nora Gibbs: yeah,

379

:

Meagan McGovern: stealing

from her mother was personal.

380

:

But she didn't steal from strangers.

381

:

She didn't steal wallets, she didn't

steal, you know, credit cards until

382

:

this, that's where she went in.

383

:

So in

384

:

Nora Gibbs: Australia, she

started stealing credit cards.

385

:

And then South Carolina, she started

stealing from people that like, you

386

:

know, this was the first one that I.

387

:

She had stolen from an actual

person that I like, had seen and was

388

:

like really mad and angry at her.

389

:

And I was like that.

390

:

Yeah.

391

:

Meagan McGovern: A new thing.

392

:

And that may have been, that may have

been why she didn't, 'cause she didn't

393

:

want to deal with anybody yelling at her.

394

:

Nora Gibbs: Yeah.

395

:

Meagan McGovern: Um, so I'm back

in upstate New York with Katie and

396

:

we're in our little apartment and

you guys had left and it was just me

397

:

and Katie and I was happy with it.

398

:

I didn't like Katie's boyfriend,

John, but I never had, and he never

399

:

liked me, but, and he was there a lot.

400

:

But she would also go up to his

apartment a lot 'cause he lived in

401

:

Indian Lake, and they had a very

volatile relationship where they fought

402

:

a lot, they broke up, they got back

together and she finally dumped him.

403

:

And I was kind of thrilled and

she was never gonna see him again.

404

:

And then she came home

and said she was pregnant.

405

:

Nora Gibbs: Yep.

406

:

Meagan McGovern: And so this was

the summer of 89, so Katie was

407

:

turning 18, she was 17, turning 18.

408

:

And she was pretty upset.

409

:

I mean, she didn't have a good job.

410

:

She had a car, but I didn't, we

still had that little dog sugar of

411

:

hers and, it was just her and sugar

in this apartment and, you know,

412

:

she didn't think she could do it.

413

:

And she didn't really want to

have a baby, but she called mom.

414

:

Yep.

415

:

And.

416

:

You know, mom said, babies are easy,

we'll get a crib, come on down.

417

:

And I, you know, said that's, that's

not really a workable solution.

418

:

Babies are easy, but toddlers are not,

419

:

Nora Gibbs: right.

420

:

And

421

:

Meagan McGovern: she said, no.

422

:

She said, I don't want anything to do with

John, and I'm just gonna, and I can't stay

423

:

here because I'll end up back with John.

424

:

And so I'm going to

move to South Carolina.

425

:

And out of,

426

:

I'm kind of surprised, I'm

still emotional about this.

427

:

But out of all of the hardest days

of my life, watching pregnant Katie

428

:

get into that car with sugar and

leave me, she wasn't leaving me.

429

:

She was going to her mom and you guys.

430

:

But for me, it felt

like utter abandonment.

431

:

Like here I am in this apartment

in a place where I didn't wanna be

432

:

in a place where I didn't choose.

433

:

And I'm in the Adirondacks

'cause mom planted me here.

434

:

And I'm in an apartment and I'm

not going to South Carolina, and I

435

:

can't go with Katie, but they're all

going off to do other things and,

436

:

and the core of who I am is just

getting in this car and driving off.

437

:

And I was gutted.

438

:

I just, and after that, to

be honest, I kind of stopped

439

:

following what was going on.

440

:

I couldn't deal with the pain

of knowing what was going on.

441

:

And I checked out of everything.

442

:

And so what you're about to

talk about is all a blur to me

443

:

because I would get updates.

444

:

Again, no cell phones, no texts.

445

:

I would just get a weird phone

call once a month saying,

446

:

somebody's here, somebody's there.

447

:

This is what we're doing.

448

:

And you and I didn't write to each other.

449

:

I didn't know what was going.

450

:

And

451

:

Nora Gibbs: you and I, I mean, we

weren't close at this point like

452

:

you, I mean, you and I didn't

have the relationship we have now.

453

:

Right.

454

:

And I mean, it was.

455

:

Harder to get information to

people and there wasn't really a

456

:

lot that we wanted to talk about.

457

:

Right?

458

:

No.

459

:

Meagan McGovern: I mean, when

you were six I was close to you.

460

:

Nora Gibbs: Yeah.

461

:

Meagan McGovern: And I mean, when you

were six and eight and I could read

462

:

you books and I could tell you stories.

463

:

I was close to you and I helped with

homework and I could cook for you.

464

:

But you know, when I was 19, you were 13.

465

:

You didn't want anything

from a weird 19-year-old kid.

466

:

Nora Gibbs: Well, and also, I mean, I

was, you know, when you're, it's one

467

:

of those things that when you're in it.

468

:

It's hard to explain to someone

who's not in it, what's going

469

:

on and what's happening.

470

:

Oh,

471

:

Meagan McGovern: absolutely.

472

:

Especially what are you gonna call

and say, I don't know where I am.

473

:

I don't know what I'm doing and I

can't tell you what mom's up to.

474

:

Nora Gibbs: Yeah.

475

:

I mean, it, it is a weird, you

know, it's a weird situation.

476

:

So we're in South Carolina, we're at this

beach house, gorgeous little beach house.

477

:

Really fun.

478

:

Um.

479

:

It was on the bird streets,

like off of Flamingo.

480

:

Like it had like all, all the

street names had names and

481

:

it's just a really cool area.

482

:

And I just, we loved Hilton Head

Morgan and I just fit in right away.

483

:

I made some great friends on Hilton Head.

484

:

Michelle Cochrane was

one of my best friends.

485

:

You know, we started hanging out

with the surfer boys and we would

486

:

go to the beach all the time.

487

:

And it was just, it was a

really fun place to live.

488

:

And I, you know, felt like this could be.

489

:

This could be it, right?

490

:

Was like we would cut

school and go to the beach.

491

:

It was really, it was a good time.

492

:

And um, you know, I started working at.

493

:

A little restaurant there

called the Salty Dog Cafe.

494

:

And Katie had come down and at this point,

you know, Katie was living with us and

495

:

we had this, we moved into this other

house in Sea Pines and John came down.

496

:

John showed up and he wanted

to, to give it a go with Katie.

497

:

So John was living with us.

498

:

Katie and John the house had

like this upstairs like loft

499

:

apartment that was kind of cool.

500

:

So they had the apartment and we

were just living there mom was no

501

:

idea what she was doing for money.

502

:

I do know that there were some credit

card schemes going on because whenever

503

:

we would go shopping, she would

have us wait outside when she paid.

504

:

And that's always, that

was always a big tell.

505

:

You know, she wasn't using

her own credit cards.

506

:

I don't know who she was using, and

things would go, miss, this was another

507

:

fully furnished house, and things would

go missing from the house, you know?

508

:

There was a TV in the game room.

509

:

Where did that TV go?

510

:

From the game room.

511

:

Oh, it's being repaired.

512

:

They're getting it fixed.

513

:

Meagan McGovern: Yeah, there's a, I have

a stack somewhere in one of my boxes

514

:

of probably 400 pages of a file from

one of the times that mom got arrested.

515

:

And I know in South Carolina she

was arrested for a lot of things.

516

:

'cause I mean, you're gonna tell

a lot of the story, but there was

517

:

a lot of the documents talk about

some kind of scam she had with

518

:

Joan Selznick and Joan Selznick is.

519

:

The daughter or niece or

whatever, the producer, this is

520

:

Nora Gibbs: a couple months

after and I'll get into that.

521

:

Meagan McGovern: Okay.

522

:

Well, she's the producer or somebody.

523

:

The guy who did Gone With

the Wind was assassin.

524

:

Her

525

:

Nora Gibbs: grandfather produced

and directed Gone With The Wind.

526

:

Meagan McGovern: Okay.

527

:

And Mom had been friends with her.

528

:

Joan has an Academy Award.

529

:

Okay.

530

:

So she was starting to do this somehow

with Joan, or she was starting to

531

:

hatch scams and schemes at this point.

532

:

I know that's.

533

:

One of the things she was

doing while she was there,

534

:

Nora Gibbs: that, that was a

little later, and I don't even

535

:

know what all of that entailed.

536

:

I just know that at one point

Joan came to visit us and we

537

:

spent a long week with Joan.

538

:

Uh, I adore Joan.

539

:

She was fantastic.

540

:

So Matthew was born in this house

in Sea Pines in South Carolina.

541

:

And, it was in 1990, January, 1990.

542

:

And it was a fantastic day.

543

:

It was, you know, I mean,

it was a really fun day.

544

:

It was, I got, I left class early, like I

kept calling, I kept going in the office

545

:

and be like, I need to call the hospital

and see if my sister's had her baby, you

546

:

know, and they ended up letting me leave.

547

:

And, you know, Morgan and I bummed

a ride from my friend Donna.

548

:

She dropped us off at the

hospital to go see Katie.

549

:

And it was fun, right?

550

:

I mean.

551

:

Katie had a baby.

552

:

Our sister was a mom and it was,

she had a little boy named Matthew.

553

:

Matthew Spencer.

554

:

Meagan McGovern: And I remember, I mean,

I got a call while I think I was at work

555

:

at Pizza Hut when I got the call and

he wasn't supposed to be born until St.

556

:

Patrick's Day and he

was born January 30th.

557

:

And so he was early

and I was very worried.

558

:

But I remember getting the call and

thinking, thank God that's not me.

559

:

I want nothing to do

with that responsibility.

560

:

I don't want her to have

a baby in mom's house.

561

:

I don't want any of that.

562

:

I am so glad to not be a part

of that mess, which is not very

563

:

charitable toward all of you, but

I, I just couldn't even do it.

564

:

Nora Gibbs: Well, it was

something fun to like focus on.

565

:

It was our excitement, right?

566

:

Yes.

567

:

Meagan McGovern: And I agree with that.

568

:

Yeah.

569

:

Nora Gibbs: So, Katie had, been there

for a few months at this point and

570

:

Katie was working, she actually was

working two jobs while she was pregnant.

571

:

She was like being a nanny for a woman

there and babysitting for a woman.

572

:

And then she was also, she was

working at the Salty Dog Cafe,

573

:

like she, or Salty Dog Bar.

574

:

She was working at the Bar and Grill.

575

:

I wasn't old enough to work there.

576

:

I was working at like the ice

cream shop with the Salty dog.

577

:

But it was fun.

578

:

And so Katie had a Matthew

there and Matthew, you know.

579

:

Things were going fine.

580

:

Mom was paying the rent, I

don't know how, through stealing

581

:

whatever, through scams schemes.

582

:

I'm not sure how, but when Matthew

was probably four or five months

583

:

old, I was with my friend Michelle,

mom called Michelle's house and

584

:

said, I need to talk to you.

585

:

I am going to the hospital.

586

:

The police are here, I'm

going to the hospital.

587

:

I don't know when I'm gonna be out.

588

:

I'm having a panic attack, but I

just need to let you know where I am.

589

:

And then she hung up the phone.

590

:

So Michelle's aunt drove us like rapidly

back to the house and mom was still there

591

:

and she was having like a panic attack.

592

:

And there were police officers there, and

Michelle and I and her aunt were there,

593

:

and her aunt, just her aunt's there.

594

:

Just making sure that I

was okay, aunt Debbie and.

595

:

You know, I'm having a panic attack 'cause

mom's getting arrested and they said, you

596

:

know, she's gonna jail for a long time.

597

:

She's done this.

598

:

And they started reading a list

of things that she had done.

599

:

And it was just theft and

theft and theft and, you know,

600

:

I I, I was like 15 years old.

601

:

I don't even remember what it was, but

it was a lot of things that the guy

602

:

just said, say goodbye to your mom.

603

:

She's going away for a long time.

604

:

Who are you here with?

605

:

Do you have someone to take care of you?

606

:

And I said, yes, my sister's here.

607

:

Katie's here, you know,

and Katie was at work.

608

:

So I called Katie, and Katie came home

and you know, mom, because she'd had a

609

:

panic attack or whatever, anxiety attack.

610

:

She ended up going to

the hospital instead.

611

:

It was to jail.

612

:

That was her big thing that,

she was good at doing, right?

613

:

So she went off and I, you

know, Michelle and her aunt left

614

:

and I was home with Katie and.

615

:

Morgan and

616

:

it was just, it was a very emotional

time and you know, Katie and John

617

:

had said, you know, listen, we're,

we're not gonna stick around for this.

618

:

We're not gonna be part of

your mom's, life anymore.

619

:

We're not gonna be here.

620

:

We're moving back to Indian Lake,

and if you'd like to come with us,

621

:

we'd like for you to come with us,

622

:

Meagan McGovern: you know.

623

:

Well, what's interesting is,

when Matthew was six weeks

624

:

old, I decided I needed to go.

625

:

Visit and see my new

nephew, and see you guys.

626

:

'cause this was probably the longest

I had ever gone without seeing you.

627

:

And 'cause Katie had left in summer

and it was now, you know, March,

628

:

I think I went for spring break.

629

:

And what was really funny was, in the

last episode I talked to my friend

630

:

Evan, the Connecticut, you know, really

preppy guy that I was crazy about

631

:

and he was close friends with our

whole family and for whatever reason.

632

:

Yeah.

633

:

He came to stay with you?

634

:

Nora Gibbs: Yeah,

635

:

Meagan McGovern: and he, he had, I think,

dropped outta college, didn't know what

636

:

he was doing with his life, and he,

and a friend of his, Matt Callahan?

637

:

Yeah, Matt Callahan.

638

:

They ended up staying with you guys

in South Carolina and of course.

639

:

I was really pissed off 'cause I

was crazy in love with Evan and he

640

:

did no interest in me whatsoever.

641

:

But what the fuck he's at your

house with you guys and I'm

642

:

Nora Gibbs: think of this house right now.

643

:

It's mom, me, Morgan, Katie, John,

Matthew, the baby, Evan and Matt.

644

:

Meagan McGovern: Well I went to visit

and I know Katie was mad 'cause Evan kept

645

:

drinking all the apple juice every day.

646

:

I remember that it was supposed to be for

Mac and you know, and Evan, of course,

647

:

I think he's contributing at some point.

648

:

But a couple years ago

I went to visit Dubin.

649

:

I was in New York City and we sat

down and had a long talk and he says

650

:

that in South Carolina, mom had him

stealing shit all the time and he

651

:

didn't know he was stealing shit.

652

:

He didn't know what was going on really.

653

:

But she would go to the store and

steal a bunch of men's clothes

654

:

and then he would go take them

back to the store and return them.

655

:

And get credit for them or get

cash for them or something.

656

:

he said like he, he went to a store

one time and took back a bunch

657

:

of bathing suits and t-shirts and

they said, do you have a receipt?

658

:

And he said, no.

659

:

And they said, well, we don't know.

660

:

He said he knew mom needed the money,

but he didn't know whether this was

661

:

stealing or whether this was a scam

or whether she bought the stuff off.

662

:

A guy off the street, he wasn't sure,

but one day at the house and he'd been

663

:

living there a while and you know, he

was a 19-year-old teenager, kind of just

664

:

like me that he probably didn't have.

665

:

Any sense like he was living

there, maybe rent free and kinda

666

:

hanging out and drinking the

baby's apple juice and, but it

667

:

Nora Gibbs: was also a beach town.

668

:

Hilton Head was the best.

669

:

Meagan McGovern: Right?

670

:

Like why not come and live with you guys?

671

:

Yeah.

672

:

And of course mom would say,

sure, but she kept putting

673

:

him up to more and more stuff.

674

:

And he said he was there one day and

the guy across the street got arrested.

675

:

Nora Gibbs: The woman across the street.

676

:

But she had a man named,

677

:

Meagan McGovern: maybe he said he thought

it was somebody who looked just like him.

678

:

He said somebody across across

the street got arrested.

679

:

'cause they thought it was him.

680

:

Nora Gibbs: Oh, she had an older son

681

:

Meagan McGovern: who

682

:

Nora Gibbs: looked

683

:

Meagan McGovern: like it.

684

:

Yeah.

685

:

The son got arrested.

686

:

Yeah.

687

:

Because they thought it was him

and he said, I don't know what

688

:

the fuck is going on here, but

689

:

Nora Gibbs: Well, and mom also ended

up stealing from that woman a lot.

690

:

Oh, well,

691

:

Meagan McGovern: yeah.

692

:

That doesn't surprise me.

693

:

Yeah.

694

:

So Evan said, I'm outta here and,

and I, I just can't do this anymore.

695

:

And I don't blame him.

696

:

And this was, so I came down to visit.

697

:

I saw Evan that week and I saw you

guys, and I saw the baby and I thought,

698

:

this is kind of a weird little thing.

699

:

And I remember moving Matthew's

arms and legs back and forth and

700

:

saying, so this is what a baby is.

701

:

This is kind of neat.

702

:

Look at all the little

toes and the fingers.

703

:

Huh?

704

:

All right.

705

:

Well I'm glad I don't have one of those.

706

:

And yeah, just, I, I, there

was no like attachment.

707

:

There was no, oh, I need one

of these, or, oh, he's so cute.

708

:

It was just, this is an interesting

thing that somebody else can have, and.

709

:

You know, then I went home

and then I don't think I saw

710

:

you guys again for two years.

711

:

I mean, it was after this.

712

:

Alright, so give me the rundown

summary of what happens next.

713

:

'cause it's, it's a

fast and furious thing.

714

:

Nora Gibbs: Okay, so rundown

summary of this is, well the

715

:

Meagan McGovern: big thing.

716

:

Nora Gibbs: So I was working in

a restaurant in a little bar.

717

:

It was a piano bar where, you know, they

would throw out, hey play some Billy Joel

718

:

and then the guy would play Piano Man.

719

:

And it was just a really fun

little bar on Helen Head I worked

720

:

in and I was working one night.

721

:

I had used, I think,

Katie's idea to get the job.

722

:

'cause I was only like 15.

723

:

It was 1990.

724

:

How, how old did

725

:

Meagan McGovern: you have to be?

726

:

Nora Gibbs: I think he'd

be 18 to serve drinks.

727

:

Meagan McGovern: Okay,

728

:

Nora Gibbs: so I must, it

must have been Katie's id.

729

:

, A lot of the times I went by

Catherine Nora McGovern, like

730

:

on my thing, and I would just

tell him, oh, I just go by Nora.

731

:

And a lot of 'em didn't really

care 'cause I was a hard worker.

732

:

Like I had waited tables

at this point often.

733

:

That was like my go-to job to earn

quick money, which I keep telling my

734

:

daughters like, Hey, you ever want a job?

735

:

You gotta wait tables.

736

:

So I was working one night and this old

man, this man came in, he was probably

737

:

like 50, mid fifties and old white guy.

738

:

And he sat at the table and I said, hi.

739

:

I said, can I get help you?

740

:

What can I get for you?

741

:

And he said, I have everything

I need, miss McGovern.

742

:

I said, I'm sorry.

743

:

He said, Nora McGovern.

744

:

And I was like, yeah, how can I help you?

745

:

I don't think I know you.

746

:

And he said, I'm can't remember his name.

747

:

He said, I'm so-and-so.

748

:

I'm from.

749

:

A member of the law enforcement that I

had never heard of, he said, and we are

750

:

about to film an episode on Your Mother

of America's Most Wanted, and I wanna

751

:

see if you'd like to discuss it with me.

752

:

Meagan McGovern: Okay.

753

:

So they hadn't filmed

it when he came to you?

754

:

Um, no.

755

:

Was he a sheriff or was he from I

don't, I have no idea who this guy was.

756

:

Like if you, was he like a TA

TV guy or a law enforcement guy?

757

:

He was law enforcement.

758

:

He was law

759

:

Nora Gibbs: enforcement.

760

:

And I said, I, I don't think that I'm

the right person to talk to about this.

761

:

And I mean, um, you know, I

mean, what do you say to that?

762

:

You know?

763

:

So I literally, I think I just

said, I'm, I don't think I'm the

764

:

right person to talk to about this.

765

:

And he said, okay, we're

working on filming the show.

766

:

We'll be in touch.

767

:

And did you tell Mom and Katie

768

:

Meagan McGovern: or

769

:

Nora Gibbs: Yeah.

770

:

Well, mom had been like,

arrested at this point.

771

:

Mom was gone.

772

:

Mom was like in jail.

773

:

Meagan McGovern: So who,

and Katie was watching you.

774

:

Nora Gibbs: Yeah, I was with

Katie and John and Morgan.

775

:

How were you guys paying the rent?

776

:

Well, my, this was like literally in

like the days after mom got arrested, so

777

:

like rent wasn't even on our radar yet.

778

:

Meagan McGovern: So probably

when they got her into jail,

779

:

Nora Gibbs: they had, they

780

:

Meagan McGovern: realized,

781

:

Nora Gibbs: yeah.

782

:

Meagan McGovern: How many warrants

she had all over the place.

783

:

Okay.

784

:

Nora Gibbs: Well, my understanding is

that they were working on it and they had

785

:

the timeline and they were getting ready

to film it, and then she got arrested.

786

:

Okay.

787

:

So I think that once they arrested

her, they can't really say

788

:

we're looking for this woman.

789

:

'cause they had already found her.

790

:

Meagan McGovern: Okay.

791

:

So they were probably mad

that she was arrested.

792

:

Nora Gibbs: Right.

793

:

So right after that happened, like in the

next two or three days, Katie and Donna

794

:

were like, let's get the fuck outta here.

795

:

And Mom was being released from jail

and why was she being released on bail?

796

:

I don't think we bailed her out.

797

:

I don't think we had any

money to bail her out.

798

:

I don't know how she was released.

799

:

Mom was being released.

800

:

She had been in a, some kind of hospital

because she had had anxiety, you know,

801

:

that fake anxiety thing she used to do.

802

:

And then she was transferred to jail and

then she was released after a couple of

803

:

probably, um, this all happened, like her

being, her being arrested, the America's

804

:

WAN guy, and then her being released where

it's all within a week to 10 days and me

805

:

deciding to go live with Katie and John.

806

:

And we did ask Morgan to go with

us and Morgan didn't wanna go.

807

:

Morgan decided she wanted to

stay with mom when mom got out.

808

:

Meagan McGovern: I mean,

it's kind of a cool town.

809

:

I wouldn't

810

:

Nora Gibbs: Right.

811

:

Love Hillhead.

812

:

So, but also

813

:

Meagan McGovern: Was mom

gonna go back to that house?

814

:

Nora Gibbs: Yeah.

815

:

Yeah.

816

:

Mm-hmm.

817

:

So Kitty and John and I left.

818

:

We left Hilton Head and we drove out.

819

:

We went to Indian Lake, we went to a

little town just up north of Indian Lake

820

:

called Bil, and we got a little house.

821

:

And it was nice.

822

:

We had a great time up there.

823

:

Um, and then Morgan and mom, shortly

after, I don't know, I don't wanna

824

:

say Morgan was involved in this, but

everything in that house was sold.

825

:

Or given away.

826

:

My friend Michelle and her mom

were called to the house and my

827

:

mom said, take whatever you want.

828

:

I'm selling the rest.

829

:

Wow.

830

:

And Michelle literally told me a couple

years ago, yeah, I still have one of

831

:

those pieces of artwork in my dining

832

:

Meagan McGovern: room.

833

:

So did they know, did they know

that wasn't mom's stuff to sell?

834

:

Probably,

835

:

Nora Gibbs: yeah.

836

:

Okay.

837

:

I have a strong feeling.

838

:

Sorry, I didn't mean to

rat them out, but Yeah.

839

:

Had a strong feeling that they

didn't know, they knew we were

840

:

renting the house, so, okay.

841

:

Every, I mean, anything that

was a nailed down was sold.

842

:

And Morgan and Mom

843

:

were bumming around.

844

:

I don't know where they went at this

point because in the next month, and

845

:

I'm not clear on their timeline, in

the next month or so, grandpa died and

846

:

grandpa died when we were in Indian Lake.

847

:

Meagan McGovern: Right.

848

:

And, and I was up there and I

was close to you at that point.

849

:

I lived in Hudson Falls, so I was

thrilled that you guys were back.

850

:

Nora Gibbs: Yeah.

851

:

Meagan McGovern: But I didn't have a car.

852

:

And Indian Lake Debil.

853

:

I mean, Indian Lake Falls is not, I

mean, it seems like it's close, but if

854

:

you don't have a car, it doesn't matter

how far it is, I can't go see you.

855

:

Right.

856

:

And so I didn't see you that

often, but when Grandpa died,

857

:

I do remember we all went

858

:

Nora Gibbs: to funeral.

859

:

We went to talk under roa.

860

:

Yeah.

861

:

So when, and Mom and Morgan did not come

to the funeral, but when Grandpa died,

862

:

and the only reason I know that they

hadn't left yet is because mom had gone

863

:

to California to pick up some money.

864

:

That grandpa had left her, I don't

know how much it was right, but

865

:

picked up the money and Morgan and

Mom left when they went to Europe.

866

:

And

867

:

Meagan McGovern: I think, from what

I can recall, it was about $19,000.

868

:

And it was supposed to be

a whole lot more than that.

869

:

But mom had spent a whole lot

of dads of Grandpa's money and

870

:

grandpa had gotten remarried.

871

:

So he had a wife, right.

872

:

That got most of his.

873

:

You know, property and stuff.

874

:

But I know Mom had thought that there

would be a lot more money than that.

875

:

Nora Gibbs: So at this point

it's like summer, fall, right?,

876

:

I, you know, was living the Indian

Lake life, going to the lake all the

877

:

time, hanging out with my friends.

878

:

My friends were happy.

879

:

I was back.

880

:

It was a homecoming for me.

881

:

Were you still in school?

882

:

Yeah, I was going to school.

883

:

I went back to high school.

884

:

So it was fall of 1990, um, and at

some point, this fall or winter,

885

:

right, it was Christmas of 1990.

886

:

Mom and Morgan were in England.

887

:

They were living in England.

888

:

I don't know why,

889

:

Meagan McGovern: something happened

and I don't remember the whole thing,

890

:

and the timeline's all muddled and

Morgan won't talk about it with me.

891

:

But at some point, mom had a rental car

and went up and down the East Coast from

892

:

Vermont to somewhere else in a rental car

and did a whole bunch of stealing stuff.

893

:

And they had a stolen purse, a stolen

wallet, and a stolen rental car.

894

:

And this was all after you had left and

they were on their own and they had left

895

:

South Carolina and it was just a disaster.

896

:

And then they went to England and Mom

had always wanted to go to England.

897

:

Right.

898

:

That was like her dream

was to go to England and.

899

:

I don't know why she went to

England or where she, what she

900

:

was gonna do for money, but she

went to England with Morgan.

901

:

Nora Gibbs: She went to England

with Morgan and literally got a

902

:

chateau in the English countryside.

903

:

It was like something in the movie.

904

:

It was unbelievable.

905

:

Meagan McGovern: What else would

you do when you go to England?

906

:

Nora Gibbs: But I, I mean, it was, okay.

907

:

Meagan McGovern: So if that's your dream,

you deserve to live your dreams lady.

908

:

Nora Gibbs: Absolutely.

909

:

So some for somehow, somebody bought me

a ticket to England from Indian Lake.

910

:

And I flew

911

:

Meagan McGovern: from

Mom sent you a ticket.

912

:

That's the Christmas that I got a box.

913

:

I was living with my

boyfriend at the time.

914

:

I had had to move outta that little

apartment because Katie had moved out and

915

:

I didn't wanna live by myself anymore.

916

:

And so I moved in with my

boyfriend and his family, his

917

:

mom and his sister brother.

918

:

And I paid them like $150 a month

rent for my own bedroom there.

919

:

I was gonna graduate from my little

community college finally, and in

920

:

the Adirondacks, and I was gonna

move to Houston in the spring,

921

:

so I had one more semester to go.

922

:

And at that house I got a box

from Mom and Morgan for Christmas,

923

:

and they did not keep up with me.

924

:

I had no idea what they were doing.

925

:

And I remember getting a beautiful

comforter and a pair of leather

926

:

boots and a weird statue of a dog,

and it was probably all stolen from

927

:

the chateau in the countryside.

928

:

Mm-hmm.

929

:

It was really cool stuff and I mean,

remember I'm, I'm working for $3 an

930

:

hour and I, I'm living on a hundred

bucks a month is a lot my money for rent

931

:

and so for me to get treats and cool

things and she can't steal them back.

932

:

So they're mine for good now.

933

:

Yeah.

934

:

Was kind of amazing.

935

:

And I was like, man, I wanna go to England

and live in the countryside and Wow.

936

:

Morgan's really lucky.

937

:

Nora Gibbs: So yeah.

938

:

Well, so I got on a plane, flew from

Albany to New York City and mom had told

939

:

me they don't make bagels in England.

940

:

So if you could please get me some bagels

and bring me bagels, I'd appreciate it.

941

:

So I literally, there's a bagel shop in

the New York airport and I went and got

942

:

her onion bagels in a brown paper bag

943

:

oh my God.

944

:

So we get to England and I get on the

plane and I'm in there and I put the

945

:

bagels up in the overhead compartment and.

946

:

Three quarter of the way through

the flight, someone opens up

947

:

the overhead compartment, the

whole plane smells like magazine.

948

:

They're like, who the fuck brought bagels?

949

:

And I was like, I was

like, God, what an asshole.

950

:

I dunno who that would

951

:

Meagan McGovern: be.

952

:

Can I tell you?

953

:

It was so funny.

954

:

Mom was a horrific.

955

:

Pain in the ass about this stuff.

956

:

Oh, I can remember her making me

go to a specific bakery an hour

957

:

away to get gingerbread men.

958

:

At one point, I had to go to a specific

place to get Thai food at one point.

959

:

I mean, I could be so mad

at her that I was absolutely

960

:

furious and not speaking to her.

961

:

And I would be going somewhere and she'd

say, all right, but on the way there,

962

:

you have to stop at this Thai restaurant

and get this one order because they are

963

:

the people that have the best stuff.

964

:

And it couldn't be in the other

965

:

Nora Gibbs: restaurant.

966

:

Honestly,

967

:

that sounds like me.

968

:

I would do the same thing.

969

:

I do that to my kids.

970

:

Like, you have to go here.

971

:

You can't go there.

972

:

You gotta go to this one.

973

:

You can't do that one.

974

:

Meagan McGovern: Uh, I, I kind

of agree with it, but also

975

:

what a pain in the ass she was.

976

:

I mean, like daughter,

you gotta bring bagels.

977

:

Your, your daughter is flying

in, you're renting a chateau with

978

:

your dad's inheritance money.

979

:

You've got no plan for a living, and your

most important priority is onion bagels.

980

:

Nora Gibbs: Yeah.

981

:

Okay.

982

:

Ugh.

983

:

Anyway, so I get off the

plane with my bagels.

984

:

I literally just had a backpack.

985

:

'cause Morgan was like, don't bring

any clothes because we're gonna

986

:

go shopping when you get here.

987

:

Meagan McGovern: Oh, I bet you were.

988

:

Nora Gibbs: And holy shit.

989

:

Did we go shopping?

990

:

We went shopping.

991

:

She picked, okay, first

off, they picked me up.

992

:

Morgan picked me up in a BMW.

993

:

Oh fuck, no idea how, and

it was like a three-year-old

994

:

BMW or maybe five years old.

995

:

It wasn't a brand new one,

but it was a nice BMW.

996

:

And she was like 18 years old, right?

997

:

Or 17-year-old.

998

:

She had a fucking BMW and no idea where

she got it from, and she picked me up.

999

:

It was Christmas time, I don't remember.

:

00:41:22,117 --> 00:41:27,997

It was, I think we had Christmas there

and then went shopping in downtown London.

:

00:41:28,237 --> 00:41:29,947

We went to the Laura Ashley store.

:

00:41:29,947 --> 00:41:31,987

We went to, I mean, anywhere we wanted.

:

00:41:31,987 --> 00:41:34,297

And mom was just like, get what you

ever you want, get whatever you want.

:

00:41:34,537 --> 00:41:36,217

I literally still have

three sweaters from there.

:

00:41:36,247 --> 00:41:39,877

'cause they were so expensive at the time

from the Laura Ashley story in London.

:

00:41:40,477 --> 00:41:41,227

Meagan McGovern: That's really funny.

:

00:41:41,287 --> 00:41:41,587

Nora Gibbs: Yeah.

:

00:41:42,137 --> 00:41:44,147

Meagan McGovern: I still have a

comfort set from Laura Ashley that

:

00:41:44,147 --> 00:41:46,727

she bought that Christmas, and

that's a 30 5-year-old comfort set.

:

00:41:46,727 --> 00:41:47,177

I don't care.

:

00:41:47,177 --> 00:41:47,687

I like it.

:

00:41:47,957 --> 00:41:49,967

Nora Gibbs: I know, like, and I,

I need to find those sweaters.

:

00:41:49,967 --> 00:41:51,107

'cause actually one of

'em was really pretty.

:

00:41:51,497 --> 00:41:53,627

Meagan McGovern: But no wonder,

no wonder you and I are hoarders.

:

00:41:53,627 --> 00:41:56,207

Like I know you're not a hoarder,

whatever, but like, oh, I'm a

:

00:41:56,207 --> 00:41:58,697

total, it doesn't surprise me when

we listen to this story like, of

:

00:41:58,697 --> 00:42:00,017

course we're gonna keep stuff.

:

00:42:00,287 --> 00:42:01,127

Nora Gibbs: I'm a total hoarder.

:

00:42:01,127 --> 00:42:03,437

Maybe this explains to my

children, Hey Charlotte.

:

00:42:03,437 --> 00:42:05,747

Hey I, why I am the way I am.

:

00:42:06,167 --> 00:42:10,097

So we went shopping and we went shopping,

I'm sure on someone else's credit card.

:

00:42:10,472 --> 00:42:13,082

Anything we wanted at any of

these stores in London, like

:

00:42:13,082 --> 00:42:14,192

high end, blah, blah, blah.

:

00:42:14,792 --> 00:42:21,542

And then we went back to the house and

the next morning there was a knock on

:

00:42:21,542 --> 00:42:25,472

the door and it was a police officer.

:

00:42:26,252 --> 00:42:26,372

Meagan McGovern: Okay.

:

00:42:26,372 --> 00:42:27,542

Were you at a Chateau?

:

00:42:27,812 --> 00:42:28,742

We were at the Chateau.

:

00:42:29,822 --> 00:42:30,992

How far from London was it?

:

00:42:31,332 --> 00:42:32,232

30 minutes.

:

00:42:32,652 --> 00:42:33,072

Nora Gibbs: 30 minutes.

:

00:42:33,072 --> 00:42:36,042

Outside of London, was it like

10 bedrooms or was it like.

:

00:42:36,822 --> 00:42:37,392

What was it?

:

00:42:37,782 --> 00:42:41,052

It was like four or five

bedrooms, just very clean.

:

00:42:41,052 --> 00:42:41,112

Wow.

:

00:42:41,412 --> 00:42:42,402

On a lot of land.

:

00:42:42,702 --> 00:42:43,332

It was beautiful.

:

00:42:43,332 --> 00:42:43,392

Wow.

:

00:42:43,662 --> 00:42:44,262

It looked like something.

:

00:42:44,412 --> 00:42:45,642

There were roses all over.

:

00:42:45,642 --> 00:42:46,722

There's a huge rose garden.

:

00:42:46,722 --> 00:42:47,352

It was beautiful.

:

00:42:48,162 --> 00:42:48,612

Beautiful.

:

00:42:48,612 --> 00:42:52,362

And it had this giant porch in the back,

like a screened in porch, but it was also

:

00:42:52,362 --> 00:42:54,192

like heated, so you could sit out there.

:

00:42:54,192 --> 00:42:56,862

It just, it was lovely, you know?

:

00:42:56,862 --> 00:42:57,762

And you can look at the garden, it's

:

00:42:57,762 --> 00:42:58,392

Meagan McGovern: conservatory.

:

00:42:59,412 --> 00:43:00,252

Nora Gibbs: It was unbelievable.

:

00:43:00,382 --> 00:43:03,202

Morgan had a boyfriend there and Morgan

had a lot of friends that she had made.

:

00:43:03,202 --> 00:43:06,002

She had been going to school there

and Kensington I don't even know how,

:

00:43:06,002 --> 00:43:07,652

but she had enrolled in school there.

:

00:43:08,222 --> 00:43:08,652

I was gonna say it.

:

00:43:08,652 --> 00:43:10,382

Was it high school or

college or, I don't know.

:

00:43:10,382 --> 00:43:10,682

High school.

:

00:43:10,922 --> 00:43:11,582

High school.

:

00:43:11,582 --> 00:43:12,332

She was like a senior.

:

00:43:12,382 --> 00:43:16,972

I, the police showed up and mom

was arrested and because Morgan

:

00:43:16,972 --> 00:43:18,742

was set the legal age there.

:

00:43:19,807 --> 00:43:22,897

As, and I guess at the

time was 17 and I was 15.

:

00:43:22,957 --> 00:43:26,917

So we were taken in with her until

they could figure out, like our

:

00:43:26,917 --> 00:43:32,579

relationship and Morgan was put into

a holding cell and this is all over,

:

00:43:32,579 --> 00:43:35,549

you know, 12 hours and then figuring

out what to do with this American girl.

:

00:43:36,299 --> 00:43:42,186

I was taken to a foster home for

teenagers like this woman, and I'll say

:

00:43:42,186 --> 00:43:43,686

this is one of the coolest things that.

:

00:43:44,031 --> 00:43:46,461

It actually really changed the

way I look at a lot of people.

:

00:43:47,241 --> 00:43:50,571

This woman and her husband, and they

had a teenage son took me into their

:

00:43:50,571 --> 00:43:53,271

home and the police dropped me off

at their house and said, this is Mrs.

:

00:43:53,271 --> 00:43:55,821

So-and-so and you'll be safe here.

:

00:43:55,971 --> 00:43:58,251

And then the police

left and I'm like, okay.

:

00:43:58,311 --> 00:43:59,451

What the fuck just happened?

:

00:43:59,451 --> 00:44:01,851

Mom had been arrested,

wasn't allowed to see her.

:

00:44:02,061 --> 00:44:05,031

Morgan was in a holding

cell in the prison.

:

00:44:05,451 --> 00:44:09,411

And I was taken in the back of a cop

car to a foster thing way out in the

:

00:44:09,411 --> 00:44:10,821

country, in the English countryside.

:

00:44:10,821 --> 00:44:11,691

A different part.

:

00:44:11,691 --> 00:44:13,041

I'd never, I'd never been in England.

:

00:44:13,041 --> 00:44:14,331

I had no idea where I was.

:

00:44:15,201 --> 00:44:16,971

Meagan McGovern: And how long were

you supposed to be in England?

:

00:44:16,971 --> 00:44:19,281

You didn't plan on moving there with

them, you were just gonna visit?

:

00:44:19,461 --> 00:44:20,661

Nora Gibbs: No, I was supposed

to be there for a week.

:

00:44:20,721 --> 00:44:21,981

It was over Christmas break.

:

00:44:22,671 --> 00:44:24,891

Like I wasn't even, it was,

I mean, I was a cheerleader.

:

00:44:24,891 --> 00:44:26,691

I wasn't supposed to be gone forever.

:

00:44:26,721 --> 00:44:26,781

Yeah.

:

00:44:26,831 --> 00:44:28,601

So I got dropped off at this foster home.

:

00:44:29,276 --> 00:44:34,376

And the woman is as nice as she

could be, one of the, the most kind

:

00:44:34,376 --> 00:44:35,606

women I've ever met in my life.

:

00:44:36,056 --> 00:44:38,036

And she took me up to her attic.

:

00:44:38,036 --> 00:44:42,566

She had this walk-in attic and it

was lined with like tubs of clothes

:

00:44:42,566 --> 00:44:47,906

from ages, infant to teenagers,

every size you could imagine.

:

00:44:47,906 --> 00:44:50,666

And it was like a closet that she

had for kids who needed clothes.

:

00:44:50,666 --> 00:44:52,706

And because that didn't have

anything with me, all of my

:

00:44:52,706 --> 00:44:54,086

clothes were back at the Chateau.

:

00:44:55,181 --> 00:44:58,491

I went shopping and got, pajamas to

sleep in and some clothes, and I had my

:

00:44:58,491 --> 00:45:00,591

own guest bedroom and my own bathroom.

:

00:45:00,591 --> 00:45:03,091

And there was like, there were

toiletries set up and it was just

:

00:45:03,091 --> 00:45:07,611

a really, I felt safe for the first

time, after being in prison with my

:

00:45:07,611 --> 00:45:11,451

mom or whatever for the last, at this

point it was probably 24 hours later.

:

00:45:12,471 --> 00:45:14,841

And, so behind the scenes.

:

00:45:16,101 --> 00:45:20,061

Someone had told Uncle Bernie and

Aunt Aura what had happened and they

:

00:45:20,061 --> 00:45:24,051

had talked to somebody who helped

get me released from this place, and

:

00:45:24,101 --> 00:45:25,391

Morgan had been released from jail.

:

00:45:25,391 --> 00:45:27,941

So I was there for probably two

or three days in this foster home.

:

00:45:29,191 --> 00:45:30,871

The teenage boy was as

nice as it could be.

:

00:45:31,051 --> 00:45:33,871

He and I actually literally, we went

outside and spoke cigarettes together.

:

00:45:34,591 --> 00:45:36,751

So, I mean, they were

as nice as it could be.

:

00:45:36,751 --> 00:45:38,791

He and his friend were there and

there was just, you know, asking

:

00:45:38,791 --> 00:45:40,021

me questions about America.

:

00:45:40,021 --> 00:45:43,351

And it was, you know, I was a cute

am American girl and it was, it

:

00:45:43,351 --> 00:45:47,101

was just a really fun experience

considering what I was like in a

:

00:45:47,101 --> 00:45:48,391

foster home in a different country.

:

00:45:48,631 --> 00:45:49,741

This family made it.

:

00:45:50,551 --> 00:45:52,231

Tolerable and Nice.

:

00:45:52,231 --> 00:45:52,291

Yeah.

:

00:45:52,531 --> 00:45:55,201

And I wish with, I wish I

could talk contact with 'em

:

00:45:55,201 --> 00:45:56,371

and just thank them, you know?

:

00:45:56,971 --> 00:46:00,841

But anyway, so Morgan and James came

and picked me up from this place.

:

00:46:00,961 --> 00:46:04,561

They had worked it out that I could be

released to Morgan, 'cause Morgan was

:

00:46:04,561 --> 00:46:06,091

technically an adult and my sister.

:

00:46:06,631 --> 00:46:08,131

So we went back to the Chateau.

:

00:46:08,131 --> 00:46:12,751

I got all of my stuff

packed up my stuff, and.

:

00:46:13,651 --> 00:46:14,521

I left Morgan there.

:

00:46:14,701 --> 00:46:15,721

Morgan didn't wanna come with me.

:

00:46:15,721 --> 00:46:18,211

I said, you can come back to Indian Lake

with me, you can live with Katie and John.

:

00:46:18,211 --> 00:46:18,901

Let's go.

:

00:46:19,021 --> 00:46:20,671

And she was like, no,

I gotta wait for mom.

:

00:46:20,671 --> 00:46:21,661

She's gonna be released.

:

00:46:22,351 --> 00:46:24,391

And I got on a plane and I

went back to Indian Lake.

:

00:46:25,741 --> 00:46:26,011

Meagan McGovern: Okay.

:

00:46:26,011 --> 00:46:29,611

So it's funny, um, 'cause I'm

finishing, I'm thinking about my

:

00:46:29,611 --> 00:46:32,491

book a lot right now because I'm

actually finishing up the edit.

:

00:46:32,491 --> 00:46:38,401

So I'm giving it to an editor this week

and the opening chapter of my book,

:

00:46:38,401 --> 00:46:41,101

I don't think I'm spoiling anything

'cause it won't be published for a

:

00:46:41,101 --> 00:46:42,721

year and a half if I ever get it out.

:

00:46:43,606 --> 00:46:49,486

But the opening scene in my book

is I was standing in Aunt Nora's

:

00:46:49,486 --> 00:46:56,056

kitchen in Houston, and this is

January of:

:

00:46:56,056 --> 00:46:58,036

is nine months pregnant with Eve.

:

00:46:58,126 --> 00:46:59,506

She's overdue with Eve.

:

00:46:59,506 --> 00:47:03,241

Eve was due on January 1st or even

Christmas, and it's like January

:

00:47:03,241 --> 00:47:05,356

5th and I was there for Christmas.

:

00:47:05,356 --> 00:47:09,646

This was Christmas break from and from, I

was there from New York and I got a phone

:

00:47:09,646 --> 00:47:11,656

call from Mom and she was in England.

:

00:47:12,016 --> 00:47:14,476

And she said, I've been arrested.

:

00:47:14,686 --> 00:47:18,496

I'm in jail, nor is going home.

:

00:47:18,586 --> 00:47:21,016

They're sending her home and

Katie can take care of her.

:

00:47:21,496 --> 00:47:25,306

And I don't know what Morgan's

doing, but I've just killed myself.

:

00:47:25,636 --> 00:47:29,026

And I wanted to let you know that

I killed myself and to say goodbye.

:

00:47:30,226 --> 00:47:34,036

And I, I said, what the f What's going on?

:

00:47:34,036 --> 00:47:34,936

How did you kill yourself?

:

00:47:34,936 --> 00:47:36,466

She said, it doesn't matter how I did it.

:

00:47:36,526 --> 00:47:38,206

I just want you to know

I'll be dead in 20 minutes.

:

00:47:38,566 --> 00:47:38,986

And.

:

00:47:39,946 --> 00:47:42,556

I'm killing myself because you didn't

send me a present for Christmas.

:

00:47:43,036 --> 00:47:44,266

You didn't call me for Christmas.

:

00:47:46,341 --> 00:47:48,856

And, and I said, I, I

don't know where you are.

:

00:47:48,856 --> 00:47:50,386

I don't know where you've been.

:

00:47:50,386 --> 00:47:52,186

I didn't know what part

of England you were in.

:

00:47:52,186 --> 00:47:53,146

I didn't know you were in jail.

:

00:47:53,326 --> 00:47:54,826

How was I supposed to send you a present?

:

00:47:54,826 --> 00:47:55,816

How was I supposed to call you?

:

00:47:55,816 --> 00:47:56,716

She said, that doesn't matter.

:

00:47:56,896 --> 00:47:58,936

If you loved me, you would've

sent me a present and you

:

00:47:58,936 --> 00:48:00,226

would've called me for Christmas.

:

00:48:00,376 --> 00:48:02,776

And I can't believe what an

ungrateful little bitch you are.

:

00:48:02,956 --> 00:48:03,916

And I am not.

:

00:48:04,361 --> 00:48:07,846

I I, so I'm just calling to tell

you to take care of Morgan because I

:

00:48:07,846 --> 00:48:08,956

don't know what's gonna happen to her.

:

00:48:09,016 --> 00:48:09,826

'cause Katie's fine.

:

00:48:09,826 --> 00:48:13,156

She's got John and Matthew, and

you know, you've got Aunt Nora.

:

00:48:13,501 --> 00:48:17,191

And, you know, Nora's gonna be fine

'cause she'll take care of Nora, but

:

00:48:17,431 --> 00:48:20,011

somebody needs to look after Morgan

'cause she's kinda lost and doesn't

:

00:48:20,011 --> 00:48:21,181

know what she wants to do with her life.

:

00:48:22,111 --> 00:48:26,281

And I mean, I was sobbing,

I, I couldn't even speak.

:

00:48:26,281 --> 00:48:27,511

And she just said, I'm gonna be dead.

:

00:48:27,511 --> 00:48:31,921

And so it, Nora finally got on

the phone and she said, Maureen.

:

00:48:32,431 --> 00:48:33,991

I am nine months pregnant.

:

00:48:33,991 --> 00:48:35,971

I am two weeks late having this baby.

:

00:48:36,121 --> 00:48:38,821

I have no patience for

your bullshit right now.

:

00:48:38,941 --> 00:48:40,201

You are making Megan cry.

:

00:48:40,201 --> 00:48:41,311

You are making me upset.

:

00:48:41,311 --> 00:48:45,271

I do not need to be upset right now,

and you need to stop this nonsense.

:

00:48:45,661 --> 00:48:49,261

And mom, who can always be like

super sobbing and crying and

:

00:48:49,261 --> 00:48:53,041

hysterical as soon as somebody yell,

I said, Nora, I don't know why you

:

00:48:53,041 --> 00:48:54,451

need to take that tone with me.

:

00:48:54,901 --> 00:48:56,611

And taken back on the phone.

:

00:48:56,611 --> 00:48:59,041

And she immediately stopped crying

and sobbing and all everything

:

00:48:59,041 --> 00:49:01,321

else and was like, this is fine.

:

00:49:01,411 --> 00:49:01,681

And.

:

00:49:02,641 --> 00:49:06,181

I said, I'm, I'm, I don't know what to

do, and are you really gonna be dead?

:

00:49:06,181 --> 00:49:07,861

She's like, I swallowed a spork.

:

00:49:08,946 --> 00:49:09,706

A spork.

:

00:49:13,021 --> 00:49:13,921

Nora Gibbs: Oh my God.

:

00:49:13,921 --> 00:49:18,391

I swallowed a s That's not the

last time she swallowed silverware.

:

00:49:21,511 --> 00:49:24,946

Meagan McGovern: So the time,

at the time, I didn't think.

:

00:49:25,651 --> 00:49:28,081

It was funny and I thought

she could die from it.

:

00:49:28,081 --> 00:49:28,776

Oh my God.

:

00:49:29,011 --> 00:49:33,721

And I cried myself to sleep that night,

and that was probably the last time.

:

00:49:34,801 --> 00:49:36,601

That was the last time I cried over mom.

:

00:49:36,661 --> 00:49:40,681

Like to that extent, that was the day

I just said goodbye to her because

:

00:49:40,921 --> 00:49:44,311

whether she was dead or not, I couldn't

have this kind of grief anymore.

:

00:49:44,611 --> 00:49:49,681

But I was telling, so Sawer was reading

my memoir and reading the beginning

:

00:49:49,681 --> 00:49:51,121

and we talked about it, and then later.

:

00:49:51,991 --> 00:49:53,821

And I don't say swallowing the sport part.

:

00:49:53,821 --> 00:49:57,151

And later on I tell him that he

fell out of his chair laughing.

:

00:49:57,361 --> 00:49:59,641

Oh my God, I don't think

I've ever heard that.

:

00:49:59,971 --> 00:50:00,931

What the fuck?

:

00:50:00,961 --> 00:50:02,281

How is swallowing a sport?

:

00:50:02,281 --> 00:50:03,001

Killing myself?

:

00:50:03,241 --> 00:50:05,881

And I cried for so long over this.

:

00:50:05,941 --> 00:50:07,291

And of course she was fine.

:

00:50:07,921 --> 00:50:11,971

She called me three days later and was

like, hi honey, did Nora make it back?

:

00:50:12,421 --> 00:50:13,351

I pooped a spark.

:

00:50:14,491 --> 00:50:15,871

What the fuck?

:

00:50:17,191 --> 00:50:18,721

Nora Gibbs: Oh, alright.

:

00:50:18,721 --> 00:50:22,201

Anyway, on that note, I think we

need to cut this episode here.

:

00:50:22,261 --> 00:50:22,681

Yes.

:

00:50:22,711 --> 00:50:25,321

Meagan McGovern: I thought we were gonna

finish everything up, but we did not.

:

00:50:25,411 --> 00:50:26,221

But um,

:

00:50:26,761 --> 00:50:27,031

Nora Gibbs: alright.

:

00:50:27,781 --> 00:50:31,351

So happened and I know that it's

like chaotic for those listening,

:

00:50:31,351 --> 00:50:32,941

but just imagine how chaotic it.

:

00:50:35,941 --> 00:50:37,111

Meagan McGovern: All right,

well let's wrap up this.

:

00:50:37,111 --> 00:50:39,181

So you ended up back

in New York with Katie?

:

00:50:39,421 --> 00:50:40,111

Yeah, I was back

:

00:50:40,321 --> 00:50:43,051

Nora Gibbs: in new leg with

Katie Morgan was waiting for mom,

:

00:50:43,051 --> 00:50:44,491

and Mom was shortly released.

:

00:50:44,491 --> 00:50:46,051

Mom was released shortly after I left.

:

00:50:46,081 --> 00:50:51,266

I never saw, I never saw mom again after

she had been arrested and that in months.

:

00:50:51,326 --> 00:50:54,811

Meagan McGovern: So in the last few

minutes since we've been talking, mom

:

00:50:54,816 --> 00:51:00,031

got arrested in South Carolina and was

released even though, even though she was

:

00:51:00,031 --> 00:51:02,251

on literally America's Most Wanted list.

:

00:51:02,431 --> 00:51:02,641

Yep.

:

00:51:02,701 --> 00:51:03,631

They let her walk out.

:

00:51:03,781 --> 00:51:04,081

Yes.

:

00:51:04,786 --> 00:51:05,686

And you don't know why?

:

00:51:05,896 --> 00:51:06,376

Nora Gibbs: I don't know.

:

00:51:07,366 --> 00:51:07,666

Meagan McGovern: Okay.

:

00:51:08,356 --> 00:51:11,776

And I have about 500 pieces of

paperwork from all that with Joan sells.

:

00:51:11,776 --> 00:51:14,356

Nick, something with checks,

something with a scam, something

:

00:51:14,356 --> 00:51:15,646

with paperwork, I don't know.

:

00:51:16,036 --> 00:51:19,546

But also there's a theft and

everything else on top of that,

:

00:51:20,356 --> 00:51:25,426

Nora Gibbs: I will say, I will say

that we do go back to South Carolina

:

00:51:25,936 --> 00:51:28,216

and Joan Selznick does visit us there.

:

00:51:29,116 --> 00:51:30,496

Meagan McGovern: Okay, so

this wasn't even the same.

:

00:51:30,676 --> 00:51:32,401

I didn't know you went back

to South Carolina with mom.

:

00:51:33,001 --> 00:51:33,811

Nora Gibbs: Yes.

:

00:51:34,171 --> 00:51:38,191

Well, I was, and this is later, but

I ended up back in South Carolina and

:

00:51:38,191 --> 00:51:43,021

mom, like literally on my prom night,

mom shows up and had a rental house

:

00:51:43,021 --> 00:51:44,701

on Tybee Island outside of Savannah.

:

00:51:44,911 --> 00:51:47,791

I was like, come to the, I come to

the beach house, bring some friends,

:

00:51:49,501 --> 00:51:50,701

Meagan McGovern: because I don't

remember where she went when

:

00:51:50,701 --> 00:51:51,661

she came back from England.

:

00:51:51,661 --> 00:51:53,401

Did she go back to South Carolina?

:

00:51:53,731 --> 00:51:54,301

No.

:

00:51:55,081 --> 00:51:55,351

Okay.

:

00:51:55,501 --> 00:51:55,831

Nora Gibbs: No,

:

00:51:55,951 --> 00:51:57,211

Meagan McGovern: we'll talk,

we can get onto that later.

:

00:51:57,211 --> 00:51:57,751

It doesn't matter.

:

00:51:57,751 --> 00:52:01,201

It was just so, so at the end of

this, I'm in upstate New York.

:

00:52:01,786 --> 00:52:03,046

You're in upstate New York?

:

00:52:03,526 --> 00:52:03,736

Yes.

:

00:52:03,736 --> 00:52:05,716

Morgan is with mom.

:

00:52:06,046 --> 00:52:06,226

Nora Gibbs: Yes.

:

00:52:06,286 --> 00:52:09,356

Meagan McGovern: And so I just talked

to Morgan for a minute and she said

:

00:52:09,356 --> 00:52:12,566

they ended up in France and in Spain.

:

00:52:13,136 --> 00:52:13,436

Yes.

:

00:52:13,436 --> 00:52:15,026

So they must have been there for a while.

:

00:52:15,176 --> 00:52:17,276

I don't know how long they were there.

:

00:52:17,816 --> 00:52:21,866

But so she gets away in South Carolina

and just walks and then she's in England

:

00:52:21,956 --> 00:52:26,248

and she walks away and I think she

gets arrested in France and walks away.

:

00:52:26,253 --> 00:52:26,486

She does

:

00:52:26,486 --> 00:52:28,526

Nora Gibbs: get arrested in

France and walked away again.

:

00:52:29,471 --> 00:52:33,611

Meagan McGovern: And I think she got

arrested on that road trip that I heard

:

00:52:33,611 --> 00:52:37,871

about with her and Morgan in the rental

car and, and wallets and all that.

:

00:52:38,111 --> 00:52:39,491

I think she got arrested during that.

:

00:52:39,761 --> 00:52:41,621

So that's at least three times.

:

00:52:41,741 --> 00:52:43,661

Nora Gibbs: And then I will tell

you, I mean, there's a couple other

:

00:52:43,661 --> 00:52:46,571

times that I was involved in that

she got arrested as well after this.

:

00:52:47,861 --> 00:52:48,131

Meagan McGovern: Okay.

:

00:52:48,131 --> 00:52:50,801

And every time she's, is she out on bail?

:

00:52:51,701 --> 00:52:52,241

I don't know.

:

00:52:52,901 --> 00:52:53,411

Nora Gibbs: I don't know.

:

00:52:54,461 --> 00:52:56,291

I wasn't actively living with her.

:

00:52:57,161 --> 00:52:57,461

Meagan McGovern: Yeah,

:

00:52:57,671 --> 00:52:58,211

Nora Gibbs: so I don't know.

:

00:52:58,211 --> 00:52:58,391

Well, I

:

00:52:58,391 --> 00:53:00,881

Meagan McGovern: just, you would think

that if you were got out on bail that

:

00:53:00,881 --> 00:53:02,261

there would be warrants for you later.

:

00:53:02,411 --> 00:53:03,911

And I don't know how

this, maybe we'll have

:

00:53:03,911 --> 00:53:06,911

Nora Gibbs: like a armchair detective

sleuth listening to us, who'd like

:

00:53:06,911 --> 00:53:10,001

to, we can give them all of her

information and they can figure out,

:

00:53:10,241 --> 00:53:11,771

like they can track her through.

:

00:53:12,041 --> 00:53:14,231

Is CODIS a thing that you

can use for old white ladies?

:

00:53:14,231 --> 00:53:15,851

Is that just for serial killers?

:

00:53:16,001 --> 00:53:18,431

I'm not sure I'm a true crime person.

:

00:53:18,431 --> 00:53:21,011

I mean, but I mean, maybe we

can track her through a record.

:

00:53:21,011 --> 00:53:23,021

I would love to see like

her old police records.

:

00:53:23,636 --> 00:53:25,946

Meagan McGovern: I mean, I have some

of them, but it doesn't really tell

:

00:53:25,946 --> 00:53:28,796

you much about how she got released.

:

00:53:28,801 --> 00:53:30,596

It says, it says what

the court cases said.

:

00:53:31,286 --> 00:53:36,506

Um, I mean, spoiler alert,

she did serve five years in

:

00:53:36,506 --> 00:53:37,646

federal prison at some point.

:

00:53:38,576 --> 00:53:39,416

Nora Gibbs: A couple years.

:

00:53:40,376 --> 00:53:40,766

Meagan McGovern: Yeah, a

:

00:53:40,766 --> 00:53:41,396

Nora Gibbs: couple years.

:

00:53:41,456 --> 00:53:42,566

A couple of times.

:

00:53:42,866 --> 00:53:43,196

Meagan McGovern: Yeah.

:

00:53:43,226 --> 00:53:44,156

She once in Kentucky

:

00:53:44,606 --> 00:53:47,126

Nora Gibbs: and once,

oh yeah, three times.

:

00:53:47,366 --> 00:53:48,026

Once in Dallas,

:

00:53:48,026 --> 00:53:48,596

Meagan McGovern: Kentucky.

:

00:53:48,866 --> 00:53:51,326

Dallas, oh, and Harris County.

:

00:53:51,506 --> 00:53:51,776

Yeah.

:

00:53:53,096 --> 00:53:53,366

Nora Gibbs: Yeah.

:

00:53:53,366 --> 00:53:53,516

Meagan McGovern: Alright.

:

00:53:54,476 --> 00:53:54,686

Nora Gibbs: Alright.

:

00:53:55,316 --> 00:53:59,306

Well I guess that shows you guys that

this is not nearly over then The exciting

:

00:53:59,366 --> 00:54:02,936

stuff is, and everything that happens,

like the ne the craziness happens

:

00:54:02,936 --> 00:54:04,136

like in the next couple of years.

:

00:54:04,136 --> 00:54:06,836

So I apologize for like, all the

back and forth and randomness.

:

00:54:07,616 --> 00:54:10,916

It's, it's chaotic to think about

sometimes and I kind of have a timeline

:

00:54:10,916 --> 00:54:15,446

in front of me just 'cause it was so

back and forth, but it's still, it's

:

00:54:15,446 --> 00:54:19,406

still hard to remember what happened

first and what happened next, right.

:

00:54:19,406 --> 00:54:19,766

Because it's.

:

00:54:20,606 --> 00:54:25,346

Meagan McGovern: Well, I mean, and out

all of this, somehow she ends up living

:

00:54:25,346 --> 00:54:28,226

in a cabin in Arkansas growing tomatoes.

:

00:54:28,286 --> 00:54:30,986

I mean, and having a nice old lady hood.

:

00:54:30,986 --> 00:54:32,871

She lived to be 80 with dad.

:

00:54:33,701 --> 00:54:34,196

With dad.

:

00:54:34,256 --> 00:54:35,666

That's another spoiler alert.

:

00:54:35,666 --> 00:54:36,836

She ends up with my father.

:

00:54:37,016 --> 00:54:37,406

Nora Gibbs: Yeah.

:

00:54:37,526 --> 00:54:41,336

Meagan McGovern: Growing tomatoes

and having a peaceful little life,

:

00:54:41,606 --> 00:54:46,886

sort of, but I don't understand

how this leads to that, so, yeah.

:

00:54:47,936 --> 00:54:50,366

Nora Gibbs: All right, well we'll get

into that in the next episode and kind

:

00:54:50,366 --> 00:54:55,766

of wind down the, um, Nora McGovern

story and turn it into the Nora Gibbs

:

00:54:55,766 --> 00:54:57,326

story in the next couple episodes.

:

00:54:58,136 --> 00:54:59,186

Meagan McGovern: Well, that's pretty fast.

:

00:54:59,216 --> 00:55:03,146

Um, yeah, actually that's the only

real reason I can ever see for changing

:

00:55:03,146 --> 00:55:07,796

your name is 'cause it wraps up one,

you know, identity and starts another.

:

00:55:08,006 --> 00:55:08,246

Nora Gibbs: Yeah.

:

00:55:08,246 --> 00:55:09,896

I was so surprised you kept yours.

:

00:55:09,896 --> 00:55:10,976

I mean, what was wrong with you

:

00:55:11,816 --> 00:55:12,176

Meagan McGovern: Megan?

:

00:55:12,176 --> 00:55:13,886

Margaret McGovern is such a great name.

:

00:55:14,066 --> 00:55:14,456

Nora Gibbs: Yeah.

:

00:55:15,536 --> 00:55:15,986

Alright.

:

00:55:15,986 --> 00:55:16,046

I.

:

00:55:17,396 --> 00:55:19,736

Meagan McGovern: Well, thank you

for listening to Forever Wild.

:

00:55:20,486 --> 00:55:22,316

Nora Gibbs: If you enjoyed

this episode and it wasn't too

:

00:55:22,316 --> 00:55:23,726

chaotic, please let us know.

:

00:55:23,906 --> 00:55:26,816

Leave us a review, find Megan

on Facebook, or share it with

:

00:55:26,816 --> 00:55:28,046

someone who loves a good story.

:

00:55:28,796 --> 00:55:30,116

Meagan McGovern: And we

would love to hear from you.

:

00:55:30,236 --> 00:55:32,066

You can share us your

stories, your questions.

:

00:55:32,066 --> 00:55:33,296

Let us know what resonates.

:

00:55:33,806 --> 00:55:35,786

Let us know what you wanna

hear more about or less about.

:

00:55:36,296 --> 00:55:36,716

Um,

:

00:55:36,986 --> 00:55:38,546

Nora Gibbs: yeah, definitely less about.

:

00:55:38,966 --> 00:55:40,616

And until next time, stay wild.

:

00:55:41,306 --> 00:55:41,906

Bye.

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About the Podcast

Forever Wild
Stories from the McGovern Girls
Forever Wild is a memoir podcast about four sisters, a con artist mother, and a childhood spent on the run. From mafia bars to game shows, mental hospitals to Australia, it’s a story of survival, chaos, and the search for home. Hosted by sisters Meagan McGovern and Nora Gibbs, this deeply personal series blends dark humor, nostalgia, and raw honesty in a journey you won’t forget.

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Meagan McGovern