The Motel Life: Bad Checks, Jail Cells, and the Australia That Never Was

Meagan McGovern: 00:00:09

Hi.

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Welcome to Forever Wild, a podcast

about family memory and the

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stories that shape who we become.

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I'm Megan McGovern, the

oldest of four Sisters.

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And I'm Nora Gibbs, the most

ridiculous of four sisters.

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Together we're sharing our journey,

growing up with an actor father, a

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mother who didn't think the rules

applied to her, at least financially

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and a childhood full of chaos,

adventure, and unforgettable moments.

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Every episode we talk about stories

from our childhood, and we talk about

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how siblings who come from the same

families can see their past in very

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different ways, and how we carry

that forward in our lives today.

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Thank you for joining us.

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This is forever wild.

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Um, I think you'd have some argument

about whether or not you're the

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most ridiculous of the four of us.

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So last time we ended our lovely

story, I was in jail and, um,

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you were going to Australia, so

against my will, against your will.

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So, okay, you wanna start with your story?

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My story?

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Whichever one you want.

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Well, I'm curious to

see how your story goes.

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So I didn't know that you had that.

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This was why you didn't go to Australia,

as I mentioned last week, so I knew,

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so where we ended it, I think last week

was you had come back from California.

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Yes.

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And you were driving up into Indian

Lake area or Adirondacks, and you

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got pulled over and got arrested.

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So I had spent, I think I spent

October, November, December, I

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think it was two or three months.

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In Los Angeles.

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I stayed with a friend of mine from

high school, Chris, we were not

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dating and it was kind and I was

actually dating back and forth.

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His friend Josh, it was super

uncomfortable 'cause I didn't

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really have a good place to stay.

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And it was, he didn't really kind of

want this girl from high school there.

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And um, but I was trying to find

myself, I was trying to find out where

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I want, what I wanted to do in life.

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I was 18, I had.

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No money, like not a dollar to my name.

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I was gonna get a job out there and get an

apartment and that I didn't wanna do that.

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And I really wanted to go to college.

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I wasn't sure how to do that.

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I knew I didn't want a life in

LA and I didn't really like it

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there, so I was kind of lost.

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And then when I heard about the sale of

the Century thing and the chance to go

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to Australia, I was, I was all over it.

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And that was like,

Australia wasn't my dream.

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But travel was my dream.

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My big thing was I wanted to go

anywhere and I had never had the chance.

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And so I worked on getting

my passport and went home.

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And when I got back

there it was a hot mess.

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And I don't know if you remember what a

hot mess you guys were in, but when I got

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back, you guys were living in a motel.

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Do you remember that?

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In Indian where?

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I don't know.

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I remember that Katie was there

and her boyfriend John was there.

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Oh, I do remember this.

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Yes.

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Yeah, we were living in

a motel in Guns Falls.

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We were living in a motel, so

I thought I was coming back to,

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you know, happy family reunion.

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I've been gone three months.

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It's a couple days before Christmas.

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Everything's gonna be great.

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You guys are living in a motel living

out of the ubiquitous black garbage bags.

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That are like the bane of my existence.

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Were all clothes are

stuffed into garbage bags.

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We've got nothing left, no furniture.

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We don't own a damn thing.

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Everything's been torn apart and mom

is still waiting for the money from the

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business deal in New York, but the whole

dream of me having a land in a cabin

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and all everything else is gone, right?

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This has all been reduced to the

guy still owes her like $20,000

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and that's all there is left.

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He's already, you know, basically

screwed her out of the land.

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I don't know if he screwed

her out of it or not.

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She was awful.

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I'm gonna assume, no, I'm

gonna assume this is her fault.

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I think he, I mean, I think he

gave her 20, 30, 40, $50,000.

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I did look up something the other night.

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It is called right of first refusal.

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She had right of first refusal on

the land, which, yeah, I was right.

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Yeah.

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And I was just, just a word that's been

floating around in our head for 30 years.

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It's a term that means that

somehow or another, she knew the

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guy who owned the land and he

gave her right of first refusal.

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She had the rights to do it.

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Whatever it was, she got a lot of cash

out of it over six or eight months.

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It kept us alive.

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She didn't get the land out of it.

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So I'm mad and I'm hurt and I'm upset

and I find out you guys are living in a

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hotel and, and we're living in this hotel

while we're waiting to go to Australia.

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We left the house in North River.

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And we were living there while we were

figuring out how to get to Australia

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or how, while we were waiting for our

flight to Australia, it wasn't, we were

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living in the hotel with no end game.

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The end game was, we're in this hotel,

we're leaving for Australia in a week.

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Okay, couple, so on the way

back up to this motel from the

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airport, we got pulled over.

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Katie and I did, and I am

sure they had our car flagged

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or they were looking for it.

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Right.

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So we got pulled over and I had

checks up from my account and the

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guy said, I'm gonna arrest you.

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And I was absolutely sure that this was

wrong, that they were looking for mom.

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Absolutely sure there was no way they

could do it because they didn't arrest me.

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White, 18 girl, girls that were

cute and in college for nothing.

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And that I could talk my way out of it.

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Mom talked her way out of it.

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Why couldn't I cry and

talk my way out of it?

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And I tried and it did not work.

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I was put in a cell and

I had a notebook with me.

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And to be fair with all the privilege

and everything else I had, I did.

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They did, I used it,

they used it, whatever.

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And I was allowed to not be searched

and I had all my clothes on and I

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didn't have to take my clothes off.

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And I was allowed to keep a notebook

and a pen, and I called mom wherever

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and told her to come bail me out.

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And I was in the cell a long time.

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I mean it was 12, 14, 16 hours something,

especially after a flight from California.

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And yeah, a long time Katie had

still had all my stuff in the

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car 'cause she had all my stuff.

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'cause you know, she drove home

and told mom what happened.

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But that was like my point

where I said, this is it.

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I'm done.

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I'm never going back.

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There's no way I could ever have

anything to do with her again.

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I want more from my life

than going to jail for her.

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And I feel bad for Morgan and Nora.

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Too bad.

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I can't do it.

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I, this is too much for

me to rescue by myself.

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I'll rescue what I can,

but I can't do this.

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And at this point, Katie had a boyfriend

and Katie was very, Katie had a boyfriend

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by John, and Katie was very into John

and they were, they were together, right?

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Like I feel like at this

point it was gonna be.

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Me and Morgan and mom, Katie and

John, and then you were on your own.

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And it was essentially, I mean, Katie and

John were essentially married for all.

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I mean, they were, that's

how close they were.

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And um, they were all always together.

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Right.

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And there was no one without the other.

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And for whatever reason, yeah, I

didn't, I wasn't, I had never had

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a relationship really like that.

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I never really had a

boyfriend at that point.

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And.

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I always had things I wanted to do

and places I wanted to go, and I mean,

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for lack of better term, I don't know,

maybe this sounds awful or arrogant,

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but I wanted to go do great things.

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I was, I had been told my whole life I

could go do great things and I couldn't

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see myself living whatever life this was.

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Yeah.

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And so.

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One of the things with the being out

on jail is when I went to the judge

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and the judge said, you have to stay

in the state and you can't leave.

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And I said, I don't know

what you're talking about.

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I have a ticket to go to Australia

in three days, or whatever it was.

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Yeah.

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And he said, you can't.

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And I said, I, I have to.

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I'm going to Australia.

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And he said, then I'm gonna

have to put you back in jail.

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You can't have bail.

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I don't think I ever knew this, or

maybe I knew it at the time and as

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one of the many things I blocked out.

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Well, and because of that,

I'm sorry, mom was what?

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That makes me really sad.

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Like I'm really sorry that that happened.

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I'm too, and I, it's not my

place to apologize, right.

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For mom's thing, but like, it's

honestly one of those things like

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shit, that's a big life changing.

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That's a, you know, left path, right path.

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Which one are you gonna go?

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Kind of thing.

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And that's, well, it's,

that's a big thing.

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And I'm really, that happened?

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Well, you think of all the, the what ifs.

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Like what if I had met a guy in Australia?

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What if I had loved it there and

decided to go to college down there?

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I know.

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What if I had just because I

probably would have stayed.

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I was looking for a way out.

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I mean, that was maybe my plan, but you

could have had a platypus all to yourself.

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Oh man, koala a wallaby.

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Um, but after all of that, I

think mom was secretly thrilled.

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That Katie and I were gonna stay behind

because Katie had a dog and she hadn't

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figured out what to do with her dog.

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She didn't leave sugar.

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Sugar.

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I mean, oh, you love sugar.

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One of the things that we haven't

talked about in all of this is that

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throughout all of this, we had two dogs.

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We had Toby and Sugar.

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So when we're talking, Toby was half frat

Weiler, half Doberman, Doberman Venture.

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Yes.

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And they found him.

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Mom found him.

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I remember when we found him, it was

in a, a furniture store parking lot.

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The guy who we were buying

furniture somewhere in California.

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In California.

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So this had been all over with us.

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So, and then sugar was a little.

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White pood thing that Katie just adored.

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Sugar had been with us forever.

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Sugar had been with us since before

the first sale of the century.

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So sugar was first.

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And sugar was deaf.

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Sugar was born.

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Deaf, yes.

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Dumb.

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And she was awful.

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Oh my gosh.

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She was awful, but, and she was a

white poodle, so she always had that

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brown shit in the corner of her eyes.

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Katie, love dong.

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I, she loved that dog.

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Katie loved that dog.

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The way Sandra loves Rosie.

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There was, there was no separating them.

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So all of this, so when we're talking

about like leaving LA and Ben Stein

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and all of this, we're also talking

about packing up a doberman and a

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poodle in the car and we talk about

showing up at my Aunt Sonya's house

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for Christmas the year before this.

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That's what we we're, we, you know,

this is, you know, with a doberman and

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a poodle and the houses in Connecticut

and all the places that my mother rents

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and the house in Indian Lake on the lake.

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Two dogs.

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I don't remember the dogs there,

but they must've been there with us.

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They were there, so we're letting

them in and out all the time.

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All of that.

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So there is no place for us to go with

two dogs, and Katie can't figure out how

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to go to Australia with the two dogs.

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And so I think mom was thrilled that

there was gonna be somebody to leave

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behind and, and also she had unfinished

business with the guy in the land deal.

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She went and rented a house in

a place called Bolton Landing.

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She rented a summer beach.

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A summer house again,

but it was, oh really?

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It was winter.

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So she got a good deal on it and she

got us into this house for Christmas

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and we managed to have a Christmas tree.

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And this was, I think you guys

were leaving in between, you left

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in between January, in between

Christmas and January 1st.

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So also it's important to note that

she rented this house from the manager

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of the Adirondack Red Wings, which

was the pro hockey team up there.

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That is important to note.

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That does come in later.

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It does come in to

play, so you're welcome.

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We rented this house, which was

a really kind of a cool house

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with, that was a great house with

two dogs, and she essentially.

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Was there for two or three days.

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Somehow we got a Christmas tree and

decorated it, I think, because you

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couldn't have Christmas without a tree.

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And two days after Christmas,

she gave Katie and me, which also

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meant giving Katie, John and me.

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I think it was $15,000 or said,

here's where you get the $15,000.

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You're gonna get it in three

days from this guy in New York.

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And I want you guys to

go up to the Adirondack.

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And pay off all of my bad checks

everywhere so that I don't get arrested

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when I get back and pay the rent on

this house for the next couple of

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months and send the rest to me in

Australia if we can figure out how to

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wire it and live on the rest of it.

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So she's leaving a 17-year-old,

an 18-year-old, or six, I think

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Katie was 17 and I was 19 at

this point, and she left us.

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With $12,000 cash in

the middle of nowhere.

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But we also didn't have a, but when we had

a terrible car, like a $1,500 garbage car.

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Yeah.

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So you guys left?

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Well, the police were looking,

let me backtrack a little bit.

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The police were looking for mom at this

point, and the reason I know that is

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because she knew they were looking for

her because in this house there was a

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really big master closet, and in the

back of the master closet there was like.

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Space access or some kind of

access to a hidden like space.

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There was a crawl space back there.

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Yeah, a crawl space.

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And mom had us, I don't remember who

was there, it was me, I think Morgan,

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maybe, I don't remember who was there.

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She had us practice hiding her in that

space in case the cops came to get her.

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So that's one of the reasons that

she wanted us to stay behind because

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when we got this money from the guy,

and that's one of the reasons the

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guy was so done with her, 'cause

she had racked up bad checks and.

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All sorts of stuff all over the

Adirondacks, and she was giving

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him a bad name, so he wanted

to buy her out and be done.

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So he had nothing to do with her.

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So he was gonna give her the last 15,

$20,000, whatever it was, and be done.

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And she told us to go and clear all the

bad checks, which could have been, and

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it's such a pain in the ass to do this.

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If you have never had to clear

bad checks for somebody, you

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have to go to every store.

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Well, at least you did then.

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You have to go to every store where the

bad check was written, go to the manager

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and say, I'm here to pay off a bad

check and apologize and tell them your

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life story and tell 'em how sorry you

are, and give them an ID and tell them

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you're not the person who's doing it,

but you're paying it off for this person.

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And they might have three bad

checks and they might have 12

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depending on how many was written.

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And so one check could be for 45, 1 could

be for 165, and one could be for 30.

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And then on top of that, so you have to

pay off the amount for each of those.

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Then you have to pay off the $35

bounced check fee for each of those.

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And then you have to go to the next store,

and the next store and the next store.

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And to get that, you have to go to

the li, get a list from somebody.

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I don't know where you get a list

of warrants or where they're from.

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I feel like there used to be a

place called Telecheck, but I

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don't know if that was after this.

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Yeah, there's a place that you go and

it tells you, and some of the pla,

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some of the things will have gone to

warrant and some of the things won't

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have gone to warrant and some of the

places will let you pay them off.

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And take it away.

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And some of them will say,

no, I wanna prosecute.

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And then you have to go to the

county or the, and some of them will

311

: 00:15:07

let you pay one bounce check fee.

312

: 00:15:09

Someone will make you pay

12 bounce check fees, right.

313

: 00:15:11

If you have 12.

314

: 00:15:12

So it, it could be, doing something like

this could take days and days and you

315

: 00:15:16

would still not know if it was clear.

316

: 00:15:18

And then you'd have to go back to

the county, to the sheriff and say,

317

: 00:15:21

does this person have any warrants?

318

: 00:15:22

And like, well, I don't wanna tell you.

319

: 00:15:24

And they'd argue with you.

320

: 00:15:25

And it was a whole thing.

321

: 00:15:27

So that was like Katie and my task

while she was gone was to go clear

322

: 00:15:31

her name, at least in New York.

323

: 00:15:33

So I don't, I'm gonna let you

tell your story in a moment, but

324

: 00:15:38

you left and Katie and John and

I, and oh my God, it was Evan.

325

: 00:15:45

Evan came up from Connecticut.

326

: 00:15:48

Connecticut, and he was my friend

from Connecticut who I just

327

: 00:15:52

adored and he was fantastic.

328

: 00:15:54

And Nail was there at some point.

329

: 00:15:56

Also, we have a good family

friend from any like named Nail.

330

: 00:15:59

I remember Nail being there

for a little bit also.

331

: 00:16:00

Oh, everybody was there.

332

: 00:16:02

I mean, so this is the thing is

we went and picked up the cash and

333

: 00:16:08

New Year's Eve we bought bottles

of booze, huge bottle of Oh sure.

334

: 00:16:13

And we bought Live Crab

and we had a crab boil and.

335

: 00:16:20

I did not do drugs at this point.

336

: 00:16:22

I just didn't like drugs and I didn't

like people who did drugs, but some of

337

: 00:16:25

the people in the house did and there

were serious drugs, and I was more drunk

338

: 00:16:31

than I had ever been in my entire life.

339

: 00:16:34

And New Year's Eve, we sang and

drank and just, it was a long night

340

: 00:16:40

and Eben was passed on the sofa.

341

: 00:16:42

I had one of the bedrooms and

at five o'clock in the morning.

342

: 00:16:48

The dogs went bananas and there was

banging and yelling and banging and

343

: 00:16:55

yelling and nobody could get up.

344

: 00:16:57

And nobody could move.

345

: 00:16:59

'cause we were buried.

346

: 00:17:00

I mean, we were passed out like crawling

to the door and the cops came in looking

347

: 00:17:04

for mom at 5:00 AM on New Year's morning.

348

: 00:17:08

And Eben, of course, was like,

I want nothing to do with this.

349

: 00:17:12

What the ha I'm, I, I do not

want, lemme call my family lawyer.

350

: 00:17:15

He's like, I do not want people looking

for other people at five o'clock

351

: 00:17:19

in the morning on New Year's Day.

352

: 00:17:20

This was supposed to be a party and Right.

353

: 00:17:23

Katie and John, Katie, for all of her

faults and wonderful qualities and

354

: 00:17:28

everything else, Katie hungover is

not something you wanna deal with.

355

: 00:17:33

Oh my God.

356

: 00:17:34

She was so mean.

357

: 00:17:34

When she was in Harvard.

358

: 00:17:35

She was screaming at the cops that my

mother wasn't there and that they get the

359

: 00:17:40

fuck out and you have no right to be here.

360

: 00:17:42

And they're screaming at her and

saying, we're gonna arrest you too.

361

: 00:17:44

And then John's in the

middle of the whole thing.

362

: 00:17:47

It was a disaster.

363

: 00:17:48

And they're like, wait a minute.

364

: 00:17:49

You're 18 and 16.

365

: 00:17:51

You're not on the rent.

366

: 00:17:52

What are you doing here?

367

: 00:17:53

And I'm like, well,

I'm allowed to be here.

368

: 00:17:54

And they're like, she's in Australia.

369

: 00:17:55

So did she abandon you?

370

: 00:17:57

No.

371

: 00:17:57

'cause I'm over 18.

372

: 00:17:58

Well, you're not on the

lease if you're over 18.

373

: 00:17:59

You're saying you're an adult.

374

: 00:18:01

Back and forth.

375

: 00:18:03

So they did, they actually searched the

crawlspace and they searched everywhere

376

: 00:18:07

because they knew she was tricky and

they finally believed she was gone.

377

: 00:18:13

Uh, and then Katie and I started

our life there because How long were

378

: 00:18:17

you supposed to be in Australia?

379

: 00:18:20

I think we were supposed

to be there two weeks.

380

: 00:18:21

Okay.

381

: 00:18:21

Two or three weeks.

382

: 00:18:22

So that was the thing was mom was supposed

to be back by like the end of January and.

383

: 00:18:27

I think we're supposed

to be back mid-January.

384

: 00:18:29

'cause I was in school there and I

know that at this point I wasn't,

385

: 00:18:34

I knew at this point I wasn't gonna

go back to Indian Lake School.

386

: 00:18:38

I had, I knew that, but in my mind I

really wanted to go back to school there.

387

: 00:18:41

I loved Indian Lake.

388

: 00:18:42

That was like my home.

389

: 00:18:43

Right.

390

: 00:18:43

And you know, I think the Adirondacks

were where we felt at home.

391

: 00:18:46

And I don't know why we felt at

home there and not in Connecticut.

392

: 00:18:49

And well.

393

: 00:18:50

I mean, Connecticut's hard

if you're not from there, but

394

: 00:18:53

Indian Lake did feel like home.

395

: 00:18:54

It felt like our people and um,

like everybody was poor, right?

396

: 00:18:59

Everybody was poor.

397

: 00:19:00

And everybody's kind of

leaves you alone to be quirky.

398

: 00:19:04

There are a lot of weird people

there, and you don't have to be,

399

: 00:19:08

I mean, in Connecticut, in la

you have to be a certain way.

400

: 00:19:10

You have to look a certain way.

401

: 00:19:11

In Indian Lake, you can be like a

bear hunter or you can be a professor.

402

: 00:19:15

Nobody really cares.

403

: 00:19:16

You can be your thing.

404

: 00:19:18

I mean, like I was on the volleyball

team, I was on the soccer team.

405

: 00:19:21

I had good friends there.

406

: 00:19:22

You know, it was just, it was

a really good fit for me and

407

: 00:19:25

I felt like that was my home.

408

: 00:19:26

So when we ended up having to

go to Australia, I remember

409

: 00:19:30

asking mom like, do I have to go?

410

: 00:19:32

Can I stay here?

411

: 00:19:33

Can I stay with Taryn's family?

412

: 00:19:34

Can I stay with anyone else?

413

: 00:19:36

And you know her whole thing.

414

: 00:19:37

You go where I go, amigo.

415

: 00:19:38

Right.

416

: 00:19:38

I remember her saying

that, and I was like.

417

: 00:19:41

I never wanted to stab my mom before,

but I wanted to stab her in that moment.

418

: 00:19:45

Like, oh, I'm not amigo.

419

: 00:19:47

I don't wanna be, I don't

wanna go where you go.

420

: 00:19:49

You know?

421

: 00:19:49

So it was very frustrating to me.

422

: 00:19:51

Um, well, yeah, both of us.

423

: 00:19:54

So you guys go and I'm mad at you

and I'm mad 'cause you don't wanna go

424

: 00:19:57

and you're on the plane and I know.

425

: 00:19:59

Sorry.

426

: 00:20:00

So Katie, my bad.

427

: 00:20:00

So Katie and John and I ended up

staying behind and we had a whole

428

: 00:20:03

different trajectory at this point

than you guys did because of that.

429

: 00:20:07

So, um, I.

430

: 00:20:09

Why don't you say what happened

when you went to Australia?

431

: 00:20:13

'cause this is like a whole thing.

432

: 00:20:15

So it was Chris between Christmas

and and New Year, so it was.

433

: 00:20:21

Winter and you know, three feet

of snow, four feet of snow in the

434

: 00:20:24

Adirondacks, and we went to Australia.

435

: 00:20:27

We got on a plane and for whatever

reason we flew outta Boston.

436

: 00:20:31

I'm not sure why or how that

happened, but I remember somebody

437

: 00:20:34

driving us to the airport.

438

: 00:20:35

I don't know how we got there,

but we flew outta Boston.

439

: 00:20:38

We got to Melbourne and.

440

: 00:20:42

We were put up in a hotel

called the Travel Lodge.

441

: 00:20:46

You know, travel Lodge was a

big thing back then and it was

442

: 00:20:48

in the middle of Melbourne.

443

: 00:20:49

It was fantastic.

444

: 00:20:50

It was this huge hotel.

445

: 00:20:51

We had one room with two queen beds

and it was me and Morgan and mom.

446

: 00:20:55

And it was the first time that

the three of us had ever been

447

: 00:20:58

like alone without all of us.

448

: 00:21:00

And was this all paid for by, this

is all paid for by Soul Century.

449

: 00:21:05

Yes.

450

: 00:21:05

So we had a account that we could

just charge breakfast, lunch, and

451

: 00:21:10

dinner to, like that was all included.

452

: 00:21:12

And we, and the hotel was paid for by sale

of Century and I think we were supposed

453

: 00:21:17

to be there in the hotel for like a week.

454

: 00:21:20

I.

455

: 00:21:20

But she somehow had them

do it for two weeks.

456

: 00:21:23

I don't know how that worked out, but so

we were there for, and she was supposed to

457

: 00:21:27

start filming a couple days after we got

there because she was supposed to get, you

458

: 00:21:31

know, they let you get acclimated 'cause

of the time difference and all that.

459

: 00:21:34

But it was a really long flight.

460

: 00:21:36

I mean, Australia, I.

461

: 00:21:37

From New York is, you know,

nine, 10 hours at that point.

462

: 00:21:40

Probably longer than that.

463

: 00:21:41

Yeah.

464

: 00:21:41

It's a hike.

465

: 00:21:42

Yeah, it was.

466

: 00:21:42

It was a really long flight.

467

: 00:21:44

And the flight, you know, the jet lagged.

468

: 00:21:45

It was the first time we'd ever been

jet lagged, so it's just like, what

469

: 00:21:47

is wrong with my body killed us.

470

: 00:21:50

But, you know, Morgan and I

woke up and we had a great time.

471

: 00:21:52

You know, the first couple

of days we're really fun.

472

: 00:21:54

Like, we were like, okay, we're here.

473

: 00:21:56

Let's embrace it.

474

: 00:21:58

Got up, ran around the city like.

475

: 00:22:00

We hopped.

476

: 00:22:00

They have a, a cold train that went

through the city, hopped on the train.

477

: 00:22:05

We discovered passion fruit soda, which

is still my favorite soda in the whole

478

: 00:22:08

world that they have in Australia.

479

: 00:22:11

And we got ready for mom to start filming.

480

: 00:22:14

We met all the other contestants.

481

: 00:22:15

You know, there were a couple other

American women there, a couple

482

: 00:22:18

American men, I don't remember

their names, but there were, um.

483

: 00:22:22

They were nice, you

know, everybody was nice.

484

: 00:22:24

They did like a cast dinner and we did,

we all went out to dinner together and

485

: 00:22:28

it was, you know, we felt very welcome.

486

: 00:22:30

The people at Sale Central were fantastic.

487

: 00:22:32

There were producers everywhere

helping us, and all of the people

488

: 00:22:35

were staying in the same hotel.

489

: 00:22:36

So it was really kind of

fun for a couple of days.

490

: 00:22:38

And Morgan and I met a couple of girls

right off the bat when we got there.

491

: 00:22:42

Names Belinda and Mary and they were

our age and they were so much fun

492

: 00:22:47

and Mom kind of liked that we were

running around doing her own thing.

493

: 00:22:50

And you know, we went to the movies with

them and Guns N Roses had released a new

494

: 00:22:54

album and we were blasted at everywhere

we went on one of their little speakers.

495

: 00:23:01

Okay, so, you know, it was time to get

to the actual filming of the show and.

496

: 00:23:08

We all kind of felt like

there was an end in sight.

497

: 00:23:11

Like either way we were gonna

win or we were gonna lose.

498

: 00:23:13

It was all gonna be over soon

and you know, we could go home.

499

: 00:23:15

We'd been there for a couple

of days at that point and you

500

: 00:23:20

know, we had brought with us.

501

: 00:23:22

So did mom think that

she was going to win?

502

: 00:23:24

I mean, what was the feeling there?

503

: 00:23:26

Like this was gonna be

another huge fortune?

504

: 00:23:29

She, I think she knew how.

505

: 00:23:34

Urgent this was, and like how stressful

and how desperate she was for this.

506

: 00:23:38

So it was kind of a

different feeling this time.

507

: 00:23:40

Like it was, there was a lot

more on the line with this one.

508

: 00:23:45

Like if we wanted, well, I mean it

was, we were poor the first time too.

509

: 00:23:50

Well, but the first time we

had been in a house and dad

510

: 00:23:52

was in the same city with us.

511

: 00:23:53

And so like at this point, at this

point, mom and Morgan and I were

512

: 00:23:57

literally like, we didn't have

a home, like we were homeless.

513

: 00:24:00

Right.

514

: 00:24:01

Well, yeah.

515

: 00:24:01

And so where Katie and I back in,

everyone was Yeah, like in our

516

: 00:24:04

mind, I mean, I think in my mind

anyway, you guys were like safe.

517

: 00:24:08

You were in a house in New York and

you know, in my mind the actuality

518

: 00:24:11

is obviously always different.

519

: 00:24:13

But, um, you know, we had

brought with us this little box

520

: 00:24:16

of Trigger girl pursuit cards.

521

: 00:24:18

'cause you know, like when we were

little, we had always done that.

522

: 00:24:20

That was kind of like our thing.

523

: 00:24:21

Like we would quiz her and do all that.

524

: 00:24:23

So, you know, we, we wanted to make

sure she was ready for the show.

525

: 00:24:26

And, you know, the day the show,

the day of the filming came.

526

: 00:24:31

And we all went to the studio together

and mom was nervous, you know?

527

: 00:24:34

And you know, back to what we were just

talking about, you know, during the years,

528

: 00:24:39

earlier when she was filming, it was

for fun and there was nothing to lose.

529

: 00:24:43

And this time the prizes and

the money were very, very real

530

: 00:24:46

and she was really desperate.

531

: 00:24:48

So there was a different

feel to this time.

532

: 00:24:50

It was a lot more urgent than.

533

: 00:24:52

The previous one had been, so the

shows took about 12 hours to tape and

534

: 00:24:57

it, you know, it was a long day and

it was heartbreaking to watch, you

535

: 00:25:00

know, mom began to show signs of wear.

536

: 00:25:03

She wasn't the same woman that

won their biggest jackpot earlier.

537

: 00:25:06

You know, she was slipping mentally

and you know, she had lost, she didn't

538

: 00:25:09

even make it past the first show.

539

: 00:25:10

It was awful.

540

: 00:25:11

Like, she just quickly went out, like

in the, it was a round of shows, so

541

: 00:25:18

she didn't, how many did she take?

542

: 00:25:19

Just one show and that was it.

543

: 00:25:21

She was out.

544

: 00:25:22

Yeah, she did one show and she was out.

545

: 00:25:24

I don't even think she answered,

you know, four or five questions.

546

: 00:25:27

Right.

547

: 00:25:28

To my recollection, she didn't

answer very many Right at all.

548

: 00:25:31

And there was no second

chance that was it?

549

: 00:25:33

No, it was like, you know, if you

get, if you win the show, that

550

: 00:25:38

person, the person who wins that

show goes on to the next one.

551

: 00:25:41

So it was like a bracket kind of thing.

552

: 00:25:43

And she was out the first show.

553

: 00:25:45

So she took it all in good cheer and

was happy and y'all went home, right?

554

: 00:25:48

Absolutely.

555

: 00:25:50

Actually, absolutely.

556

: 00:25:51

Opposite of that, she, we

went back to the travel lodge,

557

: 00:25:55

you know, she was very upset.

558

: 00:25:56

She was very sad, and she went

to bed for a couple of days.

559

: 00:25:59

She didn't get outta bed.

560

: 00:26:01

So they had a goodbye dinner for everybody

that had come and were on the show.

561

: 00:26:06

And it was kind of fun, you know?

562

: 00:26:07

I mean, there were all of these awards

and everybody was dressed up nice.

563

: 00:26:09

And mom had gotten out of bed and showered

and went to the award show because it

564

: 00:26:14

was a nice dinner and a beautiful place.

565

: 00:26:16

And then the next night there was like

another little dinner just for people.

566

: 00:26:23

It was more casual and it was kind of

just a couple of the contestants and

567

: 00:26:26

there were a couple of women there that.

568

: 00:26:28

We had met that my mom had gotten

to be friends with and she had told

569

: 00:26:34

this woman that her car didn't work.

570

: 00:26:37

You know, she had not done

the international thing.

571

: 00:26:41

So, um, she not put a international.

572

: 00:26:46

She had taken off the international

hold or something, and that's what

573

: 00:26:48

she had told the woman that it

wasn't working internationally.

574

: 00:26:50

So she asked if she could borrow her

card and she would of course send her a

575

: 00:26:53

check as soon as we got back to America.

576

: 00:26:55

And you guessed it, that did not happen.

577

: 00:26:58

Okay.

578

: 00:26:58

But you know, and I know mom never

a credit card in her life, correct?

579

: 00:27:02

I did know that.

580

: 00:27:02

Okay.

581

: 00:27:03

And it was a very un,

it was the first time.

582

: 00:27:06

Because I really liked this woman.

583

: 00:27:07

She was very sweet.

584

: 00:27:07

I don't remember her name, but

she had like a bob and it was

585

: 00:27:10

like curly blonde hair and she was

just such a sweet woman, you know?

586

: 00:27:13

Um, I really adored her and

I remember thinking, I don't

587

: 00:27:16

like where this is headed.

588

: 00:27:18

And it was, it was the first time I was

uncomfortable because I really liked

589

: 00:27:22

somebody, mom was about to scam and

like that I knew of and I knew that,

590

: 00:27:27

you know, I was gonna be part of it.

591

: 00:27:29

So she borrowed a credit card from a woman

and said that when she got back, she would

592

: 00:27:33

send her a check for whatever we had spent

and we just needed it to get us home.

593

: 00:27:37

We were leaving the next day, right?

594

: 00:27:39

We were gonna come back to America

the next day on this flight.

595

: 00:27:42

Well, the next day came and

mom said, you know what?

596

: 00:27:46

I think we're gonna stay another day or

two and we're just gonna hang out here.

597

: 00:27:49

We're in Australia.

598

: 00:27:50

We might as well just kind

of poke around a little bit.

599

: 00:27:52

So we stayed.

600

: 00:27:54

At the same hotel for a couple of days

and two or three days later, and again,

601

: 00:27:58

we're running around the city, we were

going to the public pools all the time.

602

: 00:28:01

We would go to the beach.

603

: 00:28:01

I'm in a summertime in Australia, right?

604

: 00:28:03

Like.

605

: 00:28:04

So it's the middle of the summer there.

606

: 00:28:06

It's hot.

607

: 00:28:07

We to the beach.

608

: 00:28:07

The beaches were gorgeous.

609

: 00:28:08

I saw my first pair of boobies on the

beach, 'cause it was topless beach.

610

: 00:28:12

And I was like, holy cow, where am I?

611

: 00:28:14

And I was like, oh, you know, they put

french fries on their burgers there.

612

: 00:28:17

It was Vegemite everywhere.

613

: 00:28:18

Oh, I want a french fries on a burger.

614

: 00:28:21

That sounds excellent.

615

: 00:28:21

They put french fries and they

put a fried egg on their burger.

616

: 00:28:24

So good, so good.

617

: 00:28:26

But they had like Vegemite at McDonald's

and I'm like, what is this crap?

618

: 00:28:30

But um, anyway, so after a couple of days,

travel Lodge put two and two together.

619

: 00:28:36

That sale of the century was no longer

paying the bill for our room, and they

620

: 00:28:40

very politely asked us to leave by, okay.

621

: 00:28:42

Boxing up all of our goods and

putting them outside of our room.

622

: 00:28:46

Actually, they put them at the

front desk and when they saw us

623

: 00:28:48

coming back from something, they

said, I'm sorry, we've had to.

624

: 00:28:51

You know, re possess your room.

625

: 00:28:53

You no longer have a room here.

626

: 00:28:55

So with this woman's credit card, we

went and got another cheap hotel for

627

: 00:28:58

a night, and then the next day mom

said, Hey, you know what, while we're

628

: 00:29:03

over here, I think it'd be so fun

to just drive down to Sydney for a

629

: 00:29:06

couple of days and check out Sydney.

630

: 00:29:08

Because Sydney, so Melbourne to

Sydney is like a 14, 15 hour drive.

631

: 00:29:11

But you drive down.

632

: 00:29:12

I was just gonna say that's not close.

633

: 00:29:14

No, no, not at all.

634

: 00:29:15

That's like driving LA to San

Francisco or LA to like Seattle.

635

: 00:29:19

It's, yeah, LA to Seattle kind.

636

: 00:29:21

Seems like 14, 15 hours.

637

: 00:29:22

It was a hike.

638

: 00:29:22

Yeah.

639

: 00:29:23

It's not something that you just like do.

640

: 00:29:26

Oh no, you just do it.

641

: 00:29:27

It's fine.

642

: 00:29:28

Not a big deal.

643

: 00:29:28

Okay.

644

: 00:29:28

Yeah.

645

: 00:29:29

So you just, the car.

646

: 00:29:32

Well, so we went and rented a

car on this woman's credit card.

647

: 00:29:35

Okay.

648

: 00:29:36

And mom was the only one who could drive.

649

: 00:29:38

I mean, Morgan was 15.

650

: 00:29:39

Morgan didn't drive.

651

: 00:29:40

Mom drove, right.

652

: 00:29:42

Okay.

653

: 00:29:42

And, well, Morgan could drive a little

bit like she kind of knew how to drive,

654

: 00:29:45

but she did wasn't Morgan was 15.

655

: 00:29:47

That's the whole point.

656

: 00:29:48

It doesn't matter if she knew how.

657

: 00:29:50

Well, okay, well this comes into

play later, so I'm just, okay.

658

: 00:29:54

That's called foreshadowing.

659

: 00:29:55

Okay.

660

: 00:29:55

So we, um, rented a car.

661

: 00:29:59

And we drove, we left Melbourne and we

drove from Melbourne to Sydney and it was,

662

: 00:30:04

I think it was a three day trip or two

day trip, and it was absolutely gorgeous.

663

: 00:30:09

It was the most beautiful thing,

like you drive through and you're

664

: 00:30:12

driving through like the Snowy River

National Forest and like, I'm like,

665

: 00:30:15

Hey, I think someone's parrots loose.

666

: 00:30:17

And it's like, no, that's just a parrot.

667

: 00:30:18

Like this is where they're from.

668

: 00:30:19

Yeah.

669

: 00:30:20

You know, and it was unbelievable.

670

: 00:30:21

And we went through this beach

and it was called I can't,

671

: 00:30:24

13 Mile Beach or something.

672

: 00:30:25

It was so pretty that I like swore I

would someday bring my kids back there.

673

: 00:30:29

It was the most incredible

beach in the world.

674

: 00:30:31

Spoiler alert.

675

: 00:30:31

I did get to bring my kids back there

and it was just as cool as I expected.

676

: 00:30:35

So That's crazy.

677

: 00:30:37

Yeah, that was kind of fun.

678

: 00:30:38

So we did that drive.

679

: 00:30:40

We got to Sydney and Oh my

God, what do we do in Sydney?

680

: 00:30:45

Oh, so we get into Sydney.

681

: 00:30:47

And the whole way we're

driving through all this stuff.

682

: 00:30:49

Of course I think it's beautiful.

683

: 00:30:51

And they're pointing out this beautiful

thing and every time they would

684

: 00:30:54

say something isn't this beautiful?

685

: 00:30:56

I'd say, yuck.

686

: 00:30:56

No, I wanna go home.

687

: 00:30:58

That was like my quote, Ugh, it's ugly.

688

: 00:31:00

I wanna go home.

689

: 00:31:01

And that was my whole thing.

690

: 00:31:02

I, it was a beautiful place.

691

: 00:31:04

I really wanted to go home at this point.

692

: 00:31:06

It was like two and a half, three weeks.

693

: 00:31:08

You were what?

694

: 00:31:08

You were 13 or 14?

695

: 00:31:09

I was 13.

696

: 00:31:09

I was 14.

697

: 00:31:11

Yeah.

698

: 00:31:11

You were younger than Scout.

699

: 00:31:13

Yeah.

700

: 00:31:13

Scout says, yuck, I wanna go home.

701

: 00:31:14

I was in.

702

: 00:31:17

Italy with her on her 13th birthday, and I

wanted to go scuba diving on erect, uh, to

703

: 00:31:24

go see beautiful antiques under the ocean.

704

: 00:31:27

And she sat around complaining

because she hated the entire place

705

: 00:31:30

and wanted to go home and didn't like

the food and everything was terrible.

706

: 00:31:33

Solidarity scout, solidarity.

707

: 00:31:35

I'm on the beach in Italy.

708

: 00:31:38

On my birthday.

709

: 00:31:39

On her birthday.

710

: 00:31:40

Like, can we just enjoy the Italian beach?

711

: 00:31:43

Nope.

712

: 00:31:43

I hate everything.

713

: 00:31:44

I want to go home.

714

: 00:31:44

The food sucks.

715

: 00:31:45

This is terrible.

716

: 00:31:46

Okay.

717

: 00:31:47

Yeah, so good.

718

: 00:31:48

It was, you know, I was miserable.

719

: 00:31:49

I did not like it.

720

: 00:31:50

I wanted to go home.

721

: 00:31:51

It was.

722

: 00:31:52

You know, I knew that school had

already started again and I was

723

: 00:31:55

missing things and I, you know, yeah.

724

: 00:31:57

I had FOMO before it was fomo.

725

: 00:31:58

I didn't, you know.

726

: 00:31:59

Yeah.

727

: 00:31:59

So we get to Sydney and we're there for

a day and we're walking around Sydney.

728

: 00:32:04

We went to the aquarium, which

was actually like, unbelievable.

729

: 00:32:08

That was the first time I was like,

okay, this is actually really cool.

730

: 00:32:10

We saw Opera House, you

know, we did the whole thing.

731

: 00:32:13

Um, and we're sitting there in

the hotel room and mom said.

732

: 00:32:20

And I was really just in a shitty

mood and mom said, I think I

733

: 00:32:24

have a plan that we can stay here

for a lot longer if we want to.

734

: 00:32:27

And she'd been working some

plan, like every hotel we had

735

: 00:32:30

stopped in along this route.

736

: 00:32:31

She'd been on the phone with people.

737

: 00:32:33

You know, we used to wake up in the middle

of the, you know, like 7:00 AM and she'd

738

: 00:32:36

be on the phone with someone whispering.

739

: 00:32:38

Do you remember that?

740

: 00:32:38

She was always doing that.

741

: 00:32:39

She was always on the phone

with somebody talking about a

742

: 00:32:41

plan or writing in her notebook.

743

: 00:32:43

Yeah.

744

: 00:32:43

Notes about something that you

didn't know where it came from.

745

: 00:32:46

It was like this weird shorthand

she had that she wrote notes in.

746

: 00:32:49

Yes, she did write shorthand.

747

: 00:32:50

So you had no idea whether,

I had no idea what it was.

748

: 00:32:53

So she said, you know, I have this plan

and we can stay here for a while longer,

749

: 00:32:56

and I'd really like to, and I threw a

fucking fit that you would not believe.

750

: 00:33:01

I, I, I believe it.

751

: 00:33:04

I threw things.

752

: 00:33:05

I kicked the wall.

753

: 00:33:06

I screamed.

754

: 00:33:08

I absolutely said, this is not happening.

755

: 00:33:11

I'm going home with her without you.

756

: 00:33:13

I will call Megan.

757

: 00:33:14

I'll call Katie.

758

: 00:33:15

They will come get me.

759

: 00:33:16

Like, I, I'm like 13 years old, like,

Megan's gonna come get me from Australia.

760

: 00:33:20

Like, I mean, I, I would, I would've,

you couldn't leave the country.

761

: 00:33:23

I didn't know that at all.

762

: 00:33:25

That's true.

763

: 00:33:26

I would've eventually come to get you.

764

: 00:33:29

I didn't know that.

765

: 00:33:30

So I threw a fit and you know,

Morgan was kind of like, Hey,

766

: 00:33:33

we're in Australia, we should stay.

767

: 00:33:35

This is cool.

768

: 00:33:36

And you know, I think Morgan's

whole thing, and I know we've

769

: 00:33:38

talked about this before, is

she was bigger than Indian Lake.

770

: 00:33:41

Like she wanted to do big things.

771

: 00:33:42

She wanted to be a California girl.

772

: 00:33:44

She wanted to do something

big with her life.

773

: 00:33:46

And I just wanted, you know, a quiet life.

774

: 00:33:49

Like I wanted stability.

775

: 00:33:51

I wanted to be in school versus

running around Australia.

776

: 00:33:54

What a nerd was I right.

777

: 00:33:56

Wouldn't well mean, I was kind of like, I

was kind of like Morgan in a lot of ways.

778

: 00:33:59

I was too big for Indian Lake.

779

: 00:34:00

I, I wanted to go to Australia.

780

: 00:34:02

I wanted to go do the big things.

781

: 00:34:04

But at 13, you know, a lot of kids just

wanna be home and doing their own thing.

782

: 00:34:08

They, and it doesn't even matter whether

you loved Australia or wanted to travel.

783

: 00:34:12

You were 13.

784

: 00:34:13

You had a right to wanna be,

you know, doing your own thing.

785

: 00:34:16

Yeah.

786

: 00:34:17

Oh, well one thing we did do before

we ended up leaving, um, in this

787

: 00:34:20

whole little time period that I

thought was so cool was just south of.

788

: 00:34:25

Melbourne.

789

: 00:34:27

Um, we, I guess we did this on

the way from Melbourne to Sydney.

790

: 00:34:30

Um, there's a little island

called Philip Island, and that's

791

: 00:34:33

where the ferry penguins are.

792

: 00:34:34

I was just gonna say, yeah,

that's where the penguins are.

793

: 00:34:36

Yeah.

794

: 00:34:36

So we went and we saw the ferry penguins.

795

: 00:34:38

Um, how did you get out there?

796

: 00:34:39

Like you just paid the money and

took a ferry or something, or did

797

: 00:34:42

a No, it's a, it's like a, you

took a bridge from Melbourne to.

798

: 00:34:46

Yeah, you just drive over a bridge, but

like you're driving over the bridge and

799

: 00:34:49

there are like sheep on the hills and it's

like rolling countryside and it's like

800

: 00:34:53

the most beautiful country in the world.

801

: 00:34:55

And I only remember this so well

because again, I was lucky enough

802

: 00:34:58

to take my kids back a few years,

like 15 years ago or 12 years ago.

803

: 00:35:01

And we went back and we did the ferry

penguins too, with my friend Kelly.

804

: 00:35:04

My friend Kelly that I met

in Singapore, had a house on

805

: 00:35:08

Philip Island, coincidentally.

806

: 00:35:09

And it was like, okay, that's pretty neat.

807

: 00:35:11

It was so cool.

808

: 00:35:11

So she invited us.

809

: 00:35:13

Sorry, I'm getting way sidetracked.

810

: 00:35:14

But she invited us for Christmas

one year when we lived in Singapore.

811

: 00:35:16

So we did the whole Melbourne to

Sydney Drive again, but with money

812

: 00:35:21

at this time, which was so nice.

813

: 00:35:23

But anyway, so we were in Sydney

with me and Morgan and mom, and we

814

: 00:35:27

convinced her finally to go home and,

but we had this rental car that we

815

: 00:35:33

had to, that was rented in Melbourne

for like city use in Melbourne only.

816

: 00:35:37

And we were in Sydney.

817

: 00:35:38

So Morgan and I, Morgan

drove and she took the car.

818

: 00:35:43

We drove it from the hotel like six blocks

away, and we parked it outside of like it

819

: 00:35:48

was, let's say it was Hertz or whatever.

820

: 00:35:50

We parked it around the corner

from the Hertz rental car company,

821

: 00:35:53

and this was like after hours.

822

: 00:35:54

So we parked the car around the

corner and we wrote them a note

823

: 00:35:56

inside and we wrote them a note

and said, hi, you can find your car

824

: 00:36:00

around the corner at this location.

825

: 00:36:02

Here are the car keys.

826

: 00:36:03

And we slipped it through the

after hours box so that they

827

: 00:36:06

could have their car back.

828

: 00:36:08

That's because you were

leaving or because.

829

: 00:36:11

Okay.

830

: 00:36:12

We were leaving to go back to America.

831

: 00:36:14

Okay.

832

: 00:36:15

So I could to head back home.

833

: 00:36:17

And we ended up, we moved, we drove back.

834

: 00:36:19

We flew back, and we flew back to Albany.

835

: 00:36:23

Okay.

836

: 00:36:23

So for some reason, I remember, I

thought I remembered a lot more criminal

837

: 00:36:29

activity in grift and bad stuff.

838

: 00:36:31

It was all on one person's credit card.

839

: 00:36:34

It might have been two credit

cards, but my understanding is

840

: 00:36:36

it was one lady's credit card.

841

: 00:36:39

And you just, she didn't steal

from anybody at this point.

842

: 00:36:42

She didn't grab anybody's

wallet or do anything else.

843

: 00:36:45

It was all just one credit card

and one poor woman that Yes,

844

: 00:36:48

you knew, but it wasn't Okay.

845

: 00:36:50

Yeah, because later on, and I mean

later on, we were, Nora and I were just

846

: 00:36:53

talking before this episode about how

bad it got, and Mom did a lot worse

847

: 00:36:59

than just one person's credit card.

848

: 00:37:01

Like she was stealing jewelry and stuff.

849

: 00:37:03

This, this was the first time I.

850

: 00:37:06

Using someone else besides yours.

851

: 00:37:08

Sorry.

852

: 00:37:09

Using someone else's identity and

having like a credit card and using

853

: 00:37:12

it for whatever the hell she wanted.

854

: 00:37:15

This is the first time I think

she did that to some degree.

855

: 00:37:18

I think this is gonna sound really

weird and making it all about me, but

856

: 00:37:23

I really think that once I left, she

didn't care because I kind of kept her.

857

: 00:37:30

From doing bad stuff, I

wouldn't have let her do it.

858

: 00:37:32

I would've told Aunt Nora,

I would've told the father I

859

: 00:37:35

would've done something about it.

860

: 00:37:37

And not that you and Morgan wouldn't have.

861

: 00:37:40

No, we didn't.

862

: 00:37:40

But I mean, we just, but at that

point, like, you know, you're kind

863

: 00:37:43

of with your mom and she's doing this

thing and you know it's not right,

864

: 00:37:46

but you're like, it'll all work out.

865

: 00:37:49

Right.

866

: 00:37:50

But I think she, after that

this point, everything went.

867

: 00:37:54

This is the point where

everything went sideways.

868

: 00:37:56

There was the nothing.

869

: 00:37:56

This is where everything went to shit.

870

: 00:37:58

And nothing was left when this was done.

871

: 00:38:00

Yeah.

872

: 00:38:00

This was it.

873

: 00:38:01

This was the absolute Your life was,

I mean, and you're talking about

874

: 00:38:05

turning points where what if I had

gone to Australia with you and what

875

: 00:38:09

if, I mean, I, I might've, if Mom

had said, let's stay here, I might've

876

: 00:38:12

said, hell yeah, I'm gonna go to

college here, but let's do this.

877

: 00:38:16

Well, and I think, I

think anybody listening.

878

: 00:38:20

You know, and is thinking there's no

way that all of this stuff happened

879

: 00:38:23

without somebody trying to intervene or

someone in their family trying to jump

880

: 00:38:26

in and say, we have to help these kids.

881

: 00:38:28

There's too many weird things happening.

882

: 00:38:30

We did have family members who wanted us.

883

: 00:38:34

They wanted us, they wanted

us to come live with them.

884

: 00:38:36

They wanted us to stay with them.

885

: 00:38:38

They wanted to help us.

886

: 00:38:39

Not all four of us.

887

: 00:38:40

Nobody wants four kids.

888

: 00:38:41

Okay, well, I'll say that.

889

: 00:38:43

Me, I mean, I'll, I'll say this.

890

: 00:38:46

One of the big everybody in the

family wanted to help, right?

891

: 00:38:50

Nobody wanted four feral girls.

892

: 00:38:53

Right?

893

: 00:38:54

And I don't think there's anybody

who would've taken on all four of us.

894

: 00:38:58

Nobody has the resources for that.

895

: 00:39:00

Especially, I mean, all of our

family that could have taken

896

: 00:39:03

this in had kids of their own.

897

: 00:39:04

Right.

898

: 00:39:05

And a husband.

899

: 00:39:05

Yep.

900

: 00:39:06

And they had two kids of their own.

901

: 00:39:08

And there is, one of my aunts didn't

have kids at the time and she had

902

: 00:39:13

had, at this point she had two babies.

903

: 00:39:15

Yeah.

904

: 00:39:15

She had two babies.

905

: 00:39:16

Yeah.

906

: 00:39:16

And nobody and the other ones had

older kids or they were our age.

907

: 00:39:21

Nobody can take in four feral children.

908

: 00:39:24

And the big, big thing with

taking in the four of us.

909

: 00:39:28

Is that you're dealing with my mother?

910

: 00:39:29

Yeah.

911

: 00:39:29

You knew mother.

912

: 00:39:30

She's always gonna be

there in the background.

913

: 00:39:32

My mother is a force of nature, so

in order to get the four of us, you

914

: 00:39:35

would have to sue, go through custody,

fight her tooth and nail, have her

915

: 00:39:41

trying to abduct us in the middle of

the night and have all of us convinced

916

: 00:39:45

that she, we wanted to be with her.

917

: 00:39:46

And we would sneak out in the middle of

the night and go away and we would be

918

: 00:39:49

screaming and yelling and saying, there

was no way you were gonna take us it.

919

: 00:39:52

There was no.

920

: 00:39:54

Real way for any of them to intervene.

921

: 00:39:56

And at this point you were

also, you were 18, you were 19.

922

: 00:39:59

Right.

923

: 00:39:59

But up until this point, like why didn't

anybody step in right up until this point?

924

: 00:40:04

Um, they helped by giving her money

to keep us from being homeless.

925

: 00:40:09

And there was never a grand plan to buy

her a house or pay her rent for a year

926

: 00:40:16

or figure out a long-term plan because

my mother always said she had it.

927

: 00:40:22

Covered that first.

928

: 00:40:23

She won sale of a century.

929

: 00:40:24

Everything was covered, or she was gonna

get the money from the house in Los

930

: 00:40:27

Angeles and everything was covered, or she

was getting the money from this Adirondack

931

: 00:40:31

deal and everything was covered.

932

: 00:40:32

It was gonna be fine.

933

: 00:40:33

And so there was nobody ever stepped

in to make a plan until, yeah, until

934

: 00:40:38

it was too late until I was 18.

935

: 00:40:40

Yeah, Katie's 17.

936

: 00:40:41

You guys are young.

937

: 00:40:43

And it was just a disaster.

938

: 00:40:46

All right, so you come back from.

939

: 00:40:49

Australia, we came back from Australia

and we call you and you and Katie

940

: 00:40:54

at this point are living in a little

apartment in Hudson Falls, New York.

941

: 00:40:59

Okay, so here's the thing.

942

: 00:41:01

You guys were gone.

943

: 00:41:02

It seems like you guys would've

gone a lot longer than that.

944

: 00:41:04

I don't like, I honestly, and I know

this is gonna sound so weird to people,

945

: 00:41:08

I have no idea how long we were gone for.

946

: 00:41:11

I don't know.

947

: 00:41:11

It could have been a month, it

could have been three months.

948

: 00:41:14

I don't know the answer to that.

949

: 00:41:16

I think you were gone until at least March

because this is what I know and what I

950

: 00:41:23

did on my end was we had moved into that

house right before Christmas and we took

951

: 00:41:30

the money and we went and paid off all

of the credit cards and all of the bills

952

: 00:41:33

and or whatever, checks all the bills.

953

: 00:41:35

Everything else kept her outta jail.

954

: 00:41:37

I went to court.

955

: 00:41:39

I paid off my.

956

: 00:41:41

Bounced checks and kept

myself out of jail.

957

: 00:41:44

The judge gave me a stern lecture and I

didn't know whether to thank him or roll

958

: 00:41:49

my eyes at him or spit, and I decided

that because I had been out of college

959

: 00:41:57

the year before, the semester before

that, I couldn't do that anymore, and I

960

: 00:42:00

enrolled at the community college, the

Adirondack Community College because I

961

: 00:42:04

didn't know what my plan was, but I knew

I wanted to do that in the meantime.

962

: 00:42:11

I don't remember how or why, but we

didn't have the money for rent for

963

: 00:42:14

February and March because we had

spent all of that money on cocaine

964

: 00:42:19

partying and paying off bad checks.

965

: 00:42:22

And I think we also bought

a car, like a $4,000 car.

966

: 00:42:27

We had to go down to New York

City to buy 'cause mom told us to.

967

: 00:42:30

But I do know mom expected there to

be, you know, $10,000 left over from

968

: 00:42:34

that 15,000 and there it wasn't there.

969

: 00:42:37

And I mean there's only so

much money you can spend on, on

970

: 00:42:40

alcohol and booze in a month.

971

: 00:42:41

It wasn't, I remember her being very

upset with you guys 'cause she did expect

972

: 00:42:44

you guys to have money when we got back.

973

: 00:42:47

Right.

974

: 00:42:47

But we literally did what she said.

975

: 00:42:49

We paid off all the checks

and paid off all the debt and.

976

: 00:42:53

Bought stuff for the house and just stupid

stuff like the, the battery on the car

977

: 00:42:58

was always dead and we had to get the

car jumped all the time and a hundred

978

: 00:43:02

dollars here and a hundred dollars there

and some groceries and it just went and

979

: 00:43:07

the guy from, and I think it was only like

a month to month lease for the winter.

980

: 00:43:10

It wasn't like a long-term thing.

981

: 00:43:11

It was like you can have

the house for January and by

982

: 00:43:15

February you need to be out.

983

: 00:43:17

All I know is that we were outta money.

984

: 00:43:19

Katie and I didn't know what to do,

and the guy from the Red Wings called

985

: 00:43:23

us and said, we want my house back.

986

: 00:43:25

I, I'm only gone for a month or two.

987

: 00:43:26

I need to come back and, you know,

and so by March 1st I did something

988

: 00:43:32

I had never done before and I

called a family member for help.

989

: 00:43:35

And I called my uncle Bernie and I

said, I want to get my own place.

990

: 00:43:37

And he's like, about fucking time.

991

: 00:43:39

Sure, what do you need?

992

: 00:43:40

And I love him.

993

: 00:43:42

I found an apartment for $300

a month rent, and I needed.

994

: 00:43:48

A $300 deposit and $300

for the first month.

995

: 00:43:51

And that seemed like the most money

I had ever imagined owing somebody.

996

: 00:43:56

And it was an insane amount of money to

borrow from somebody, but I didn't care.

997

: 00:44:00

And he said, here's $600.

998

: 00:44:02

Off you go.

999

: 00:44:03

And I, it's funny you

don't think about it.

: 1000

00:44:05,677 --> 00:44:07,717

I don't even remember in those

days how you would've done that.

: 1001

00:44:07,717 --> 00:44:09,032

Would he have mailed me a check?

: 1002

00:44:09,667 --> 00:44:11,797

Would, would I have gone to Western Union?

: 1003

00:44:11,797 --> 00:44:13,147

Things were just harder then.

: 1004

00:44:13,177 --> 00:44:15,937

I do remember going to Western

Union occasionally, so I feel

: 1005

00:44:15,937 --> 00:44:17,257

like that was the thing back then.

: 1006

00:44:17,407 --> 00:44:17,617

Yeah.

: 1007

00:44:17,617 --> 00:44:20,857

But Uncle Bernie wouldn't have gone

to Western Union, probably would've

: 1008

00:44:20,857 --> 00:44:22,387

just gone to his bank and wired it.

: 1009

00:44:22,957 --> 00:44:23,707

Yeah, that's true.

: 1010

00:44:24,427 --> 00:44:25,957

Um, I don't know.

: 1011

00:44:26,047 --> 00:44:30,457

So Katie and I got a tiny little

apartment and it was actually, it was

: 1012

00:44:30,457 --> 00:44:33,247

three bedrooms, but it was a little,

I mean, the whole thing was probably

: 1013

00:44:33,247 --> 00:44:37,927

four, 500 square feet and it was on the.

: 1014

00:44:38,272 --> 00:44:42,952

Upper floor of a house where

an 85-year-old man and his wife

: 1015

00:44:42,952 --> 00:44:44,187

lived downstairs, I remember.

: 1016

00:44:44,272 --> 00:44:47,152

And they rented, they rented

out the uh, uh, the downstairs

: 1017

00:44:47,152 --> 00:44:48,142

and their names were Mr.

: 1018

00:44:48,142 --> 00:44:48,502

And Mrs.

: 1019

00:44:48,502 --> 00:44:48,982

Flood.

: 1020

00:44:50,212 --> 00:44:53,512

And so this is: 1990

they were born in 1905 and

: 1021

00:44:53,512 --> 00:44:55,252

: 1908

: 1022

00:44:55,792 --> 00:45:00,982

And they had lived in that house

ever since he was born in: 1905

: 1023

00:45:01,042 --> 00:45:05,962

And so they had lived in that

house for, you know, 85 years and.

: 1024

00:45:07,087 --> 00:45:08,077

She loved us.

: 1025

00:45:08,167 --> 00:45:13,477

And the biggest tragedy though, and

this was really hard, I don't even

: 1026

00:45:13,477 --> 00:45:17,947

like talking about it, but it was

hard, is that they wouldn't take dogs.

: 1027

00:45:18,607 --> 00:45:24,427

And we still had Toby and Sugar and

Katie said, I can't go without my dog.

: 1028

00:45:24,427 --> 00:45:25,027

And we said, okay.

: 1029

00:45:25,027 --> 00:45:29,497

And we took sugar to meet them and

they said, oh, sugar, sugar, sugar.

: 1030

00:45:29,497 --> 00:45:29,947

Oh, sugar.

: 1031

00:45:29,947 --> 00:45:31,057

She's such a sweet little thing.

: 1032

00:45:31,387 --> 00:45:34,447

But they couldn't have Toby, they couldn't

have a Wiley Doberman in their house.

: 1033

00:45:34,477 --> 00:45:34,597

Yeah.

: 1034

00:45:35,737 --> 00:45:42,397

Katie and I had to take Toby to the

pound and we begged them to find him

: 1035

00:45:42,397 --> 00:45:47,257

a good home, but we were literally

stuck with nothing but the clothes

: 1036

00:45:47,257 --> 00:45:48,457

on our back, no place to live.

: 1037

00:45:48,457 --> 00:45:51,637

And Uncle Bernie had given me the month

money for an apartment and I was not

: 1038

00:45:51,637 --> 00:45:53,467

going to let that go because of a dog.

: 1039

00:45:54,007 --> 00:45:57,457

But we had carried this dog,

you know, for all over the

: 1040

00:45:57,457 --> 00:45:58,987

country at this point, and I was.

: 1041

00:45:59,632 --> 00:46:01,762

Devastated for it, but

it wasn't even my dog.

: 1042

00:46:01,792 --> 00:46:03,142

I didn't even like the dog.

: 1043

00:46:03,292 --> 00:46:10,102

I don't even, I mean, it was like,

and, and this was one of the, this

: 1044

00:46:10,102 --> 00:46:12,622

was one of the, the points where I

was like, I've gotta make sacrifices.

: 1045

00:46:12,622 --> 00:46:15,022

I've sat in a jail for this woman.

: 1046

00:46:15,112 --> 00:46:18,397

I cannot lose my life over a dog.

: 1047

00:46:18,712 --> 00:46:23,212

I, I've gotta, and I'll say Toby

at this point was older and had a

: 1048

00:46:23,212 --> 00:46:26,932

lot of like, hip problems and Toby

was not gonna be along much longer.

: 1049

00:46:26,932 --> 00:46:27,412

So like.

: 1050

00:46:27,682 --> 00:46:30,712

Well, no, I was hoping you were saying

when, say Toby was a great dog and

: 1051

00:46:30,712 --> 00:46:33,172

I'm sure somebody adopted him and

loved him 'cause he was so sweet.

: 1052

00:46:33,232 --> 00:46:35,062

So I don't know either way.

: 1053

00:46:35,062 --> 00:46:38,242

Well, Toby was my dog, so I'm looking

at the bright side like he was.

: 1054

00:46:38,302 --> 00:46:42,982

Yes, it, within a year or two, it would've

been a very different situation for him.

: 1055

00:46:42,982 --> 00:46:44,272

He would've been very expensive.

: 1056

00:46:44,782 --> 00:46:46,192

It would've been a lot of pain.

: 1057

00:46:46,777 --> 00:46:50,647

I don't ever feel bad that like, I'm

Of course, like when I found out, I was

: 1058

00:46:50,647 --> 00:46:52,057

like, what the fuck are you talking about?

: 1059

00:46:52,057 --> 00:46:52,627

Toby's gone.

: 1060

00:46:53,017 --> 00:46:54,397

You know, like it was heartbreaking.

: 1061

00:46:55,057 --> 00:46:55,267

Right.

: 1062

00:46:55,267 --> 00:46:55,957

But Right.

: 1063

00:46:56,017 --> 00:46:58,867

You know, with some

retrospect and, you know.

: 1064

00:46:58,872 --> 00:46:59,122

Yeah.

: 1065

00:46:59,587 --> 00:47:02,737

Like there was just no way I, there

was, and it was one of the hardest

: 1066

00:47:02,737 --> 00:47:07,507

things I've, I've had to do was

like, you know, but also somebody

: 1067

00:47:07,507 --> 00:47:08,887

else put me in this situation.

: 1068

00:47:08,887 --> 00:47:08,889

I know.

: 1069

00:47:08,962 --> 00:47:10,867

I, I didn't ask, I was mad at mom.

: 1070

00:47:10,867 --> 00:47:11,827

I was not mad at you.

: 1071

00:47:11,887 --> 00:47:12,097

Oh, yeah.

: 1072

00:47:14,617 --> 00:47:16,897

So Katie and I moved into this

place and we had no furniture.

: 1073

00:47:16,957 --> 00:47:19,387

I don't remember what

you did for Craigslist.

: 1074

00:47:19,387 --> 00:47:20,197

Garage sales there.

: 1075

00:47:20,197 --> 00:47:23,287

You probably looked for a, I I remember

sitting on a couch and I remember

: 1076

00:47:23,287 --> 00:47:24,787

you guys saying it was so funny.

: 1077

00:47:24,787 --> 00:47:27,127

This is actually one of my

favorite, like fun memories.

: 1078

00:47:27,127 --> 00:47:30,967

And you probably don't remember

this, but you guys at like,

: 1079

00:47:30,967 --> 00:47:32,257

I wanna say five 30 at night.

: 1080

00:47:32,257 --> 00:47:33,187

You said, come here, come here.

: 1081

00:47:33,187 --> 00:47:35,377

And we would go down and sit

at the bottom of the stairs.

: 1082

00:47:35,722 --> 00:47:38,122

And the old people do the stairs,

would listen to jeopardy really

: 1083

00:47:38,122 --> 00:47:40,822

loud and we could hear it through

the stairs or through the wall.

: 1084

00:47:40,822 --> 00:47:41,842

'cause the wall was so thin.

: 1085

00:47:41,842 --> 00:47:42,502

Do you remember the Yep.

: 1086

00:47:43,132 --> 00:47:44,847

And we would sit on the, I don't that, no.

: 1087

00:47:44,847 --> 00:47:46,912

We would sit on the stairwell and

listen to their jeopardy when you guys

: 1088

00:47:46,912 --> 00:47:48,412

didn't, when your TV wasn't working.

: 1089

00:47:49,282 --> 00:47:50,842

These people were so fantastic.

: 1090

00:47:50,842 --> 00:47:51,262

I don't, yeah.

: 1091

00:47:51,262 --> 00:47:52,192

We never had a tv.

: 1092

00:47:52,192 --> 00:47:52,942

I had nothing.

: 1093

00:47:53,002 --> 00:47:53,362

Yeah.

: 1094

00:47:53,812 --> 00:47:58,162

And I got a job at Pizza Hut and I

waited tables at Pizza Hut and I ended

: 1095

00:47:58,162 --> 00:48:01,432

up living in this place for three years

and going to school here for three years.

: 1096

00:48:01,852 --> 00:48:03,982

And I loved these people and I.

: 1097

00:48:04,717 --> 00:48:09,967

The little old lady was very,

very old school,: 1930

: 1098

00:48:09,967 --> 00:48:11,407

She had not ever come outta this.

: 1099

00:48:11,407 --> 00:48:15,487

She wore a wig every morning and

purchased it on top of her head, and

: 1100

00:48:15,487 --> 00:48:20,347

she insisted that since I was going to

school, she would make me a, a sand,

: 1101

00:48:20,352 --> 00:48:22,237

a, a lunch, a packed lunch to go.

: 1102

00:48:22,537 --> 00:48:25,627

Uh, that's a very upstate New York

thing that you take a packed lunch

: 1103

00:48:25,627 --> 00:48:29,947

everywhere and that it's always

chicken sandwiches and it's just

: 1104

00:48:30,007 --> 00:48:31,867

dry chicken between TVs of bread.

: 1105

00:48:32,242 --> 00:48:35,332

But she put butter on the bread and every

morning she would get up and she would

: 1106

00:48:35,332 --> 00:48:39,892

make me a chicken sandwich because she

thought, thought that was maybe part of

: 1107

00:48:39,892 --> 00:48:43,012

my rent or something, or it was the right

thing to do, or just the nice thing to do.

: 1108

00:48:43,012 --> 00:48:43,432

I don't know.

: 1109

00:48:43,437 --> 00:48:43,762

I love that.

: 1110

00:48:43,762 --> 00:48:44,632

That's such a great story.

: 1111

00:48:45,262 --> 00:48:45,682

It is.

: 1112

00:48:45,682 --> 00:48:49,582

I just, I really loved her and she

was kind enough to let me take the

: 1113

00:48:49,582 --> 00:48:54,502

dog in and they loved sugar and they

loved Katie and I, you know, from that

: 1114

00:48:54,502 --> 00:48:59,032

point on, I, I waited tables at pizza

and I went to college and I was very.

: 1115

00:49:00,217 --> 00:49:04,627

Lost and kind of alone, but

also happy because it was

: 1116

00:49:04,627 --> 00:49:06,397

my own place in my own life.

: 1117

00:49:06,907 --> 00:49:10,867

But when you guys got back, the

first thing mom did was say, okay,

: 1118

00:49:10,867 --> 00:49:11,797

we're gonna move in with you.

: 1119

00:49:12,487 --> 00:49:13,747

You've got three bedrooms.

: 1120

00:49:15,517 --> 00:49:17,317

And I was horrified.

: 1121

00:49:17,887 --> 00:49:20,617

And I had started going to a, a counselor.

: 1122

00:49:20,767 --> 00:49:21,967

A counselor at the community college.

: 1123

00:49:21,967 --> 00:49:23,227

It was the best thing

that ever happened to me.

: 1124

00:49:23,557 --> 00:49:23,797

Wow.

: 1125

00:49:23,857 --> 00:49:24,637

And she said.

: 1126

00:49:25,297 --> 00:49:27,007

You can't let your

mother move in with you.

: 1127

00:49:27,217 --> 00:49:27,937

And I said, what?

: 1128

00:49:27,967 --> 00:49:29,707

What do you mean my mother

has to move in with me?

: 1129

00:49:29,707 --> 00:49:30,697

I can't leave her homeless.

: 1130

00:49:30,697 --> 00:49:32,017

And she said, no, you have to say no.

: 1131

00:49:32,707 --> 00:49:35,527

And my mom was furious.

: 1132

00:49:35,527 --> 00:49:40,297

I had stolen all of her money and

taken all of her money and used it

: 1133

00:49:40,297 --> 00:49:42,607

irresponsibly and thrown it all away.

: 1134

00:49:42,787 --> 00:49:44,647

And probably I did use a

lot of it irresponsibly.

: 1135

00:49:44,647 --> 00:49:46,477

I really don't remember what

happened to it, but I know I

: 1136

00:49:46,477 --> 00:49:47,677

didn't blow the whole thing.

: 1137

00:49:47,677 --> 00:49:47,767

Right.

: 1138

00:49:47,767 --> 00:49:49,297

I know I did what she told me to do.

: 1139

00:49:49,627 --> 00:49:54,337

And there's probably a couple thousand

dollars that was, you know, missing, but.

: 1140

00:49:55,402 --> 00:49:57,802

Um, in, in general.

: 1141

00:49:57,802 --> 00:50:02,242

I knew I hadn't done that, but she

was furious screaming at anybody who

: 1142

00:50:02,242 --> 00:50:06,742

would listen that I screwed her over

and not Katie, of course, just me.

: 1143

00:50:07,672 --> 00:50:14,902

And she ended up doing something

that I had never seen her do before.

: 1144

00:50:14,902 --> 00:50:17,152

And this was like how we knew

it was the beginning of the end.

: 1145

00:50:17,542 --> 00:50:19,912

She decided that.

: 1146

00:50:19,912 --> 00:50:22,582

I don't know why there were still

cops looking for her, but there

: 1147

00:50:22,582 --> 00:50:25,132

were, I think the bad judge were,

Nope, that's after this apartment.

: 1148

00:50:25,252 --> 00:50:26,572

She was wandering for something else.

: 1149

00:50:26,812 --> 00:50:28,642

We moved into an apartment in Glens Falls.

: 1150

00:50:31,042 --> 00:50:31,917

We moved into an apartment.

: 1151

00:50:32,242 --> 00:50:32,452

Okay.

: 1152

00:50:32,452 --> 00:50:34,042

So she did move into an apartment first.

: 1153

00:50:34,072 --> 00:50:34,312

Okay.

: 1154

00:50:34,462 --> 00:50:35,482

So you guys got an apartment.

: 1155

00:50:35,572 --> 00:50:35,932

Yes.

: 1156

00:50:36,142 --> 00:50:39,262

So you guys got an apartment and

she was mad that she had to get

: 1157

00:50:39,262 --> 00:50:41,452

an Apartment, furious apartment.

: 1158

00:50:41,602 --> 00:50:45,832

It was a three bedroom apartment and it

was above dentist and it was in falls.

: 1159

00:50:49,597 --> 00:50:53,797

She did that to be me, arc, Katie and

me, and furious that we were both saying

: 1160

00:50:53,827 --> 00:50:57,757

paying separate rent and that I was making

her maintain her own place when I had an

: 1161

00:50:57,757 --> 00:50:59,167

apartment where she could live for free.

: 1162

00:50:59,737 --> 00:51:03,217

And if I was making money at Pizza

Hut and I could make my own rent,

: 1163

00:51:03,547 --> 00:51:06,637

why would I make her get her own

place and didn't love her and didn't?

: 1164

00:51:06,642 --> 00:51:08,017

I love you guys and

what was wrong with me?

: 1165

00:51:08,137 --> 00:51:09,037

This is apartment.

: 1166

00:51:09,307 --> 00:51:12,127

I started going to school, this department

I went to Glens Falls High School.

: 1167

00:51:12,892 --> 00:51:14,992

Um, or middle school.

: 1168

00:51:15,202 --> 00:51:17,062

I went to Glens Falls Middle School

'cause I was in eighth grade in

: 1169

00:51:17,062 --> 00:51:19,132

this department and it was so fun.

: 1170

00:51:19,132 --> 00:51:21,322

I had the best time of

my life in Glens Falls.

: 1171

00:51:21,682 --> 00:51:25,522

I met my friends that I'm still friends,

I'm friends with on Facebook too day.

: 1172

00:51:25,522 --> 00:51:26,602

I'm still friends with people.

: 1173

00:51:26,602 --> 00:51:26,722

Happy.

: 1174

00:51:29,122 --> 00:51:29,422

Yeah.

: 1175

00:51:30,142 --> 00:51:31,942

I mean, I was, I was happy there.

: 1176

00:51:32,242 --> 00:51:35,062

I thought it was a, a good place to live.

: 1177

00:51:35,062 --> 00:51:37,337

It was better than the

Adirondacks 'cause it wasn't, I.

: 1178

00:51:41,557 --> 00:51:41,617

Yeah.

: 1179

00:51:43,147 --> 00:51:44,437

Right, right.

: 1180

00:51:44,437 --> 00:51:47,017

So it had all the beauty

of the place there, but you

: 1181

00:51:47,017 --> 00:51:48,397

weren't stuck in a little town.

: 1182

00:51:48,397 --> 00:51:50,947

I'll say this is the apartment road

closed that I started drinking.

: 1183

00:51:51,097 --> 00:51:52,417

I had my first cigarette.

: 1184

00:51:52,537 --> 00:51:55,567

I smoked pot for the first time, and I

kissed my first boy for the first time.

: 1185

00:51:56,377 --> 00:51:57,277

Shane Mul.

: 1186

00:51:57,277 --> 00:51:57,278

Okay.

: 1187

00:51:57,283 --> 00:51:59,332

Hey, wow.

: 1188

00:52:00,997 --> 00:52:02,677

Oh, I went crazy in that house.

: 1189

00:52:02,677 --> 00:52:04,537

We used to go to parties and fields.

: 1190

00:52:04,537 --> 00:52:04,627

Ugh.

: 1191

00:52:05,167 --> 00:52:05,707

What was the word?

: 1192

00:52:08,317 --> 00:52:09,577

No, we were there for

like three or four months.

: 1193

00:52:09,652 --> 00:52:13,612

I don't think that lasted very

long though, because so, so

: 1194

00:52:13,612 --> 00:52:14,872

where this all wraps up Yeah.

: 1195

00:52:14,872 --> 00:52:18,862

Is that by the end of that semester of,

of college for me, and by the end of

: 1196

00:52:18,862 --> 00:52:21,232

everything else, summertime mom was one.

: 1197

00:52:21,232 --> 00:52:21,892

It was summertime.

: 1198

00:52:22,462 --> 00:52:23,932

There were more warrants up for her.

: 1199

00:52:25,222 --> 00:52:25,732

Summertime.

: 1200

00:52:25,732 --> 00:52:26,002

Yeah.

: 1201

00:52:26,152 --> 00:52:28,492

And four wins.

: 1202

00:52:28,492 --> 00:52:30,622

Ser mom said herself

into a mental hospital,

: 1203

00:52:32,662 --> 00:52:33,352

four wins.

: 1204

00:52:33,412 --> 00:52:35,242

And I remember thinking.

: 1205

00:52:36,307 --> 00:52:39,007

That maybe this was going to be good for

her, maybe this was actually gonna help

: 1206

00:52:39,517 --> 00:52:43,237

and that maybe she was mentally ill and

that maybe this would fix everything.

: 1207

00:52:44,317 --> 00:52:49,357

Um, and then it became clear that she

was doing that to avoid being arrested.

: 1208

00:52:49,417 --> 00:52:54,547

That they weren't gonna go arrest

her from a mental hospital and you,

: 1209

00:52:56,077 --> 00:52:57,787

she made Morgan come stay with us.

: 1210

00:52:59,152 --> 00:53:02,452

And I was mad about being saddled

with a 15-year-old sister.

: 1211

00:53:02,512 --> 00:53:04,852

I remember that, and I know

that that's not fair to Morgan.

: 1212

00:53:05,062 --> 00:53:06,292

Morgan had no place to go.

: 1213

00:53:06,592 --> 00:53:09,352

But I also remember thinking,

I can barely feed myself.

: 1214

00:53:09,442 --> 00:53:12,172

I don't want to give my

extra bedroom to Morgan.

: 1215

00:53:12,202 --> 00:53:13,702

I don't have room for this.

: 1216

00:53:13,702 --> 00:53:19,342

I can't do this and I'm being sucked

back into this and I don't remember you.

: 1217

00:53:19,372 --> 00:53:23,182

I ended up going to stay with,

got moved, our aunt and uncle in

: 1218

00:53:23,182 --> 00:53:26,602

Houston and time that I had ever.

: 1219

00:53:26,947 --> 00:53:28,657

Spent any time with them.

: 1220

00:53:32,437 --> 00:53:36,187

I was not told they must have known

until halfway through my stay there,

: 1221

00:53:39,307 --> 00:53:40,147

I feel like.

: 1222

00:53:40,147 --> 00:53:44,677

So where did I remember thinking mom had

gone to visit Uncle Bernie and Aunt Sonia?

: 1223

00:53:46,207 --> 00:53:48,457

I think that's what I was told is

she went to visit her siblings.

: 1224

00:53:48,637 --> 00:53:50,017

So we moved out of that apartment.

: 1225

00:53:50,557 --> 00:53:53,197

I went to go stay with them

in Houston for the summer.

: 1226

00:53:53,257 --> 00:53:54,337

Had a great summer.

: 1227

00:53:54,877 --> 00:53:56,077

Um, yeah.

: 1228

00:53:58,192 --> 00:53:58,432

I bet.

: 1229

00:53:58,852 --> 00:53:59,907

Well, they were always fantastic.

: 1230

00:54:00,287 --> 00:54:01,867

I'm joined, we joined a summer camp.

: 1231

00:54:02,062 --> 00:54:06,262

I joined a day camp at the YMCA in

Houston, and we went all over Houston.

: 1232

00:54:06,262 --> 00:54:10,522

Every day we went swimming, we would

go roller skating, we'd go ice skating.

: 1233

00:54:10,522 --> 00:54:11,482

We went to movies.

: 1234

00:54:11,482 --> 00:54:12,292

We had the best time ever.

: 1235

00:54:12,292 --> 00:54:15,322

We had so much fun that summer

and they, you know, uncle Bob

: 1236

00:54:15,322 --> 00:54:16,432

would drop me off in the morning.

: 1237

00:54:16,942 --> 00:54:19,822

I would go play with my friends all

day, go back, we'd have a nice dinner.

: 1238

00:54:19,912 --> 00:54:21,202

It was like the most fun summer.

: 1239

00:54:21,382 --> 00:54:22,822

Sydnee was the little tiny baby.

: 1240

00:54:22,822 --> 00:54:23,662

I was babysitting her.

: 1241

00:54:23,662 --> 00:54:24,922

She was like 10 months old.

: 1242

00:54:24,922 --> 00:54:26,182

One, maybe a year old.

: 1243

00:54:26,512 --> 00:54:27,682

Ben was like three or four.

: 1244

00:54:29,902 --> 00:54:31,162

Sounds like the worst.

: 1245

00:54:31,612 --> 00:54:32,302

Oh my God was so fun.

: 1246

00:54:32,302 --> 00:54:37,597

I had the best summer and I would

like sneak cigarettes and ugh, the, I

: 1247

00:54:37,602 --> 00:54:40,957

remember smoking in Uncle Bob's bathroom

and he found and he was like, Hey.

: 1248

00:54:41,362 --> 00:54:43,462

Don't ever smoke a cigarette

in my house again and ain't

: 1249

00:54:43,462 --> 00:54:44,482

where I found my cigarettes.

: 1250

00:54:44,722 --> 00:54:47,992

And she cut them in half and like

dumped water in them in the trash can.

: 1251

00:54:48,052 --> 00:54:49,552

'cause I went to go get

them outta the trash can.

: 1252

00:54:49,552 --> 00:54:50,602

I thought she had just threw 'em away.

: 1253

00:54:50,782 --> 00:54:53,482

She had like crushed them and

poured water all over them.

: 1254

00:54:53,542 --> 00:54:54,592

Oh, I was so mad.

: 1255

00:54:58,972 --> 00:54:59,662

Oh God.

: 1256

00:55:00,112 --> 00:55:01,852

How dare somebody parent you?

: 1257

00:55:04,192 --> 00:55:04,492

Um.

: 1258

00:55:06,277 --> 00:55:10,657

So then, anyway, to wrap up this,

this whole saga, this, I'll say this

: 1259

00:55:10,657 --> 00:55:13,717

was kind, anyone's still listening

to this, knew that this in the next

: 1260

00:55:13,717 --> 00:55:15,727

two or three years is a lot of this.

: 1261

00:55:15,757 --> 00:55:18,637

It's a lot of, what the

fuck are you talking about?

: 1262

00:55:18,757 --> 00:55:20,107

How did you end up doing this?

: 1263

00:55:20,107 --> 00:55:21,157

Where did you go?

: 1264

00:55:21,667 --> 00:55:23,767

Do you remember what

happened from here to here?

: 1265

00:55:23,767 --> 00:55:28,987

It's a lot of, I mean, in the next

couple of years from this point on, I

: 1266

00:55:28,987 --> 00:55:31,447

probably moved another eight to 10 times.

: 1267

00:55:34,957 --> 00:55:42,727

And mom got progressively right, worse and

bold from, okay, I've got a scheme that's

: 1268

00:55:42,727 --> 00:55:47,137

a little sketchy, but it might make a lot

of money to fuck it, steal her purse, take

: 1269

00:55:47,137 --> 00:55:48,787

her jewelry, let's just throw the stuff.

: 1270

00:55:48,787 --> 00:55:51,217

And it went from borrowing

someone's credit card to stealing

: 1271

00:55:51,217 --> 00:55:54,637

people's wallets out of their

purses very quickly after this.

: 1272

00:55:54,697 --> 00:55:56,587

So it was, um, right.

: 1273

00:55:56,617 --> 00:55:57,367

You know, it was a lot.

: 1274

00:55:57,367 --> 00:55:58,262

But I think that right.

: 1275

00:55:58,897 --> 00:56:02,947

I think that her going to the mental

hospital that summer was the best

: 1276

00:56:02,947 --> 00:56:05,617

thing that could have happened to me

because it showed me what I wanted

: 1277

00:56:05,617 --> 00:56:06,967

my life to live like look like.

: 1278

00:56:07,387 --> 00:56:10,927

I knew that you could have a family

and you could have dinner at five

: 1279

00:56:10,927 --> 00:56:15,217

o'clock and you could have kids

and do the whole thing, and I.

: 1280

00:56:16,342 --> 00:56:19,612

And that was what I

mean, going to see them.

: 1281

00:56:19,672 --> 00:56:21,892

My aunt and Uncle Houston

did the same for me.

: 1282

00:56:22,102 --> 00:56:25,822

They gave baths every night and they

made sure their kids brushed their teeth

: 1283

00:56:26,152 --> 00:56:29,722

and the kids got dressed every morning

in clean clothes and they had pajamas.

: 1284

00:56:29,722 --> 00:56:33,802

And the pajamas were in a certain place

and there was no throwing everything

: 1285

00:56:33,802 --> 00:56:35,362

on the pile next to the floor.

: 1286

00:56:35,422 --> 00:56:36,562

There was next to the bed.

: 1287

00:56:36,562 --> 00:56:40,102

It was just, there was laundry done

and it was done well, and there was,

: 1288

00:56:40,132 --> 00:56:41,842

the refrigerator was cleaned out and.

: 1289

00:56:42,352 --> 00:56:46,342

They ate dinner at home and they didn't

say, oh, and I remember when I, to

: 1290

00:56:46,342 --> 00:56:49,882

somewhere they were going, a bookstore,

and I was babysitting my cousin and

: 1291

00:56:49,882 --> 00:56:51,112

she asked me if I wanted a book.

: 1292

00:56:51,112 --> 00:56:53,212

And I said, oh, I'm really

into Stephen King right now.

: 1293

00:56:53,212 --> 00:56:55,342

'cause I just discovered

like reading for fun.

: 1294

00:56:55,642 --> 00:56:57,232

I said, can you get me

the new Stephen King book?

: 1295

00:56:57,292 --> 00:57:01,072

And she came back with Jane Austen

and I was like, I don't want

: 1296

00:57:01,072 --> 00:57:02,842

Jane Austen, I want Stephen King.

: 1297

00:57:02,842 --> 00:57:03,562

I want murder.

: 1298

00:57:03,562 --> 00:57:04,402

I want mayhem.

: 1299

00:57:04,402 --> 00:57:05,632

I want trash.

: 1300

00:57:05,932 --> 00:57:08,122

And she's like, no, Jane Austen's

really good for your brain.

: 1301

00:57:08,122 --> 00:57:10,252

And I'm like, bro, I don't want

something good for my brain.

: 1302

00:57:10,252 --> 00:57:11,242

I want, you know.

: 1303

00:57:11,872 --> 00:57:12,232

So,

: 1304

00:57:15,412 --> 00:57:19,582

well, I, I remember one of my absolute

favorite memories is when we would go

: 1305

00:57:19,582 --> 00:57:22,912

there, first of all, they put the kids

to bed, read the books, reunited at a

: 1306

00:57:22,912 --> 00:57:27,082

certain time, and they would lie down

with them and they would always say, and

: 1307

00:57:27,082 --> 00:57:29,902

Bob would always say, 'cause he was, you

know, pretty young and hip at this point.

: 1308

00:57:29,902 --> 00:57:32,062

He'd say, well, after I put

the kids to bed, we'll go out.

: 1309

00:57:32,062 --> 00:57:34,102

And I was like, 'cause he

wanted to go do cool stuff.

: 1310

00:57:34,642 --> 00:57:40,132

And he was probably, you know,

38 at this point, maybe, or, and.

: 1311

00:57:40,507 --> 00:57:41,802

So I would, um mm-hmm.

: 1312

00:57:42,067 --> 00:57:42,907

He'd put the kids to bed.

: 1313

00:57:42,907 --> 00:57:43,957

He'd always fall asleep.

: 1314

00:57:43,957 --> 00:57:46,207

We'll put 'em into bed and he'd get

back up and I'd be like going out.

: 1315

00:57:46,207 --> 00:57:47,467

He's like, oh my God.

: 1316

00:57:47,527 --> 00:57:49,087

Oh, the bookstore, I guess.

: 1317

00:57:49,297 --> 00:57:52,897

But we would go to the bookstore,

the book stop, and he would

: 1318

00:57:52,897 --> 00:57:53,947

buy me whatever I wanted.

: 1319

00:57:54,097 --> 00:57:57,247

I could buy a hundred dollars

worth of books if I wanted to.

: 1320

00:57:57,862 --> 00:57:59,962

I could buy as many books as I wanted.

: 1321

00:57:59,962 --> 00:58:01,552

And it was never, and it was fun, right?

: 1322

00:58:01,552 --> 00:58:05,302

I mean, they were starting this company

that I now work for and it was, um,

: 1323

00:58:05,302 --> 00:58:07,012

that I've now worked for, for 28 years.

: 1324

00:58:07,402 --> 00:58:11,302

Um, so I remember, you know, the

company had just been open for like

: 1325

00:58:11,302 --> 00:58:14,542

five years at that point, and it

was just, it was a really big deal.

: 1326

00:58:14,632 --> 00:58:14,902

So

: 1327

00:58:18,117 --> 00:58:21,172

it was a really big deal and it was

just nice to see normal families

: 1328

00:58:21,172 --> 00:58:23,332

and I always used to think, how did.

: 1329

00:58:24,112 --> 00:58:27,292

My aunt grew up, all of our aunts normal,

they all grew up and had these wonderful

: 1330

00:58:27,292 --> 00:58:30,172

lives, and mom was just chaos after chaos.

: 1331

00:58:31,282 --> 00:58:31,612

Okay.

: 1332

00:58:34,702 --> 00:58:35,032

All right.

: 1333

00:58:35,032 --> 00:58:37,942

So after this it just

spirals I think so too.

: 1334

00:58:38,272 --> 00:58:41,482

Further and further and you know, again,

is a good point to, it's, it's very

: 1335

00:58:41,482 --> 00:58:45,322

chaotic the next couple years and a lot

of people listening to this are gonna

: 1336

00:58:45,322 --> 00:58:47,842

think, there's no way this is true.

: 1337

00:58:48,277 --> 00:58:51,667

And I'm just here to tell you,

it absolutely all happened.

: 1338

00:58:51,847 --> 00:58:57,937

It absolutely changed a lot of

people's lives and, um, you know, it

: 1339

00:58:57,937 --> 00:58:59,467

shaped who we are and who we became.

: 1340

00:59:03,847 --> 00:59:07,417

Yeah, I mean, and that's the whole

point of this is how do you go through

: 1341

00:59:07,417 --> 00:59:09,487

this and then learn how to do normal?

: 1342

00:59:09,487 --> 00:59:11,017

How do you do bads for your kids?

: 1343

00:59:11,077 --> 00:59:13,057

Well, I'll tell you, every time

my kids have a cavity, they

: 1344

00:59:13,057 --> 00:59:14,257

blame it on my bad parenting.

: 1345

00:59:14,257 --> 00:59:16,717

So maybe I didn't know,

maybe I never learned.

: 1346

00:59:17,887 --> 00:59:18,517

It's really funny.

: 1347

00:59:19,477 --> 00:59:19,807

All right.

: 1348

00:59:19,807 --> 00:59:24,577

Alright, well, so after all that, thank

you for listening to Forever Wild.

: 1349

00:59:24,697 --> 00:59:28,237

If you are flabbergasted by this

episode, like I'm, or if you've enjoyed

: 1350

00:59:28,237 --> 00:59:29,707

this episode, you know, let us know.

: 1351

00:59:30,007 --> 00:59:31,057

We would love to hear from you.

: 1352

00:59:31,117 --> 00:59:35,107

So send us your questions, thoughts,

um, ideas for what to talk about next

: 1353

00:59:35,107 --> 00:59:36,067

and what you'd like to hear more about.

: 1354

00:59:36,127 --> 00:59:37,687

Until next time, stay wild.

: 1355

00:59:39,157 --> 00:59:39,847

Bye bye.