Episode 7

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Published on:

8th Apr 2025

The Valley’s Keeper of Disposable Children

In this raw, layered episode of Forever Wild, Meagan and Nora take us back to 1986—peak Valley Girl era—where their family finds a brief glimpse of stability in the San Fernando Valley… before it all unravels again. From a rundown house near the Sherman Oaks Galleria to a sudden move to Connecticut just days before Christmas, the sisters recount a whirlwind time marked by missed opportunities, unexpected generosity, and unsettling encounters.

We hear about the “extra” kids who lived with them, how their mother became the subject of a Ben Stein newspaper profile—and what happened when he took a disturbing interest in one of the sisters. It’s a story of instability and survival, told with humor, honesty, and a fierce sense of reflection.

Trigger warning: This episode contains discussions of child exploitation and inappropriate behavior by an adult.


⏱️ Timestamps (Approximate)

  • 00:01 – Intro and stabby moods
  • 04:30 – Life in the San Fernando Valley
  • 12:00 – The college dream that slipped away
  • 20:45 – “Throwaway children” and Ben Stein’s glowing article
  • 29:10 – The poolside photo shoot
  • 36:00 – Connecticut and the Christmas from hell
  • 47:00 – College envy and the reality check
  • 55:00 – Ben Stein calls again—with a disturbing request
  • 01:04:00 – The Spy Magazine mention and the truth behind the creep
  • 01:08:00 – Wrapping up: privilege, predators, and the path ahead

📎 Mentioned in this Episode:

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Transcript
Meagan McGovern:

Hi.

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Welcome to Forever Wild, a podcast

about family memory and the

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stories that shape who we become.

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I'm Megan McGovern, the

oldest of Four Sisters.

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Nora Gibbs: And I'm Nora Gibbs,

the most annoying of four sisters.

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Today we're sharing our journey,

growing up with an actor father, a

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mother who didn't think the rules

applied to her, at least financially

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and a childhood full of chaos,

adventure, and unforgettable moments.

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Meagan McGovern: Every episode we tell

stories about our childhood and we talk

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about how siblings who come from the

same families can see their past in

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very different ways, and how we carry

that forward into our lives today.

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Nora Gibbs: Thank you for joining us.

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This is Forever Wild.

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Meagan McGovern: Alright, Norris,

what are we gonna talk about today?

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Nora Gibbs: Well, I said I'm annoying,

but I'm actually annoyed with everything.

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You actually just say, I'm the

most annoyed of the McGovern girls.

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Um, everything's annoying right now.

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Oh my gosh.

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I just, you know.

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My friends make fun of

me when I say I'm stabby.

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And that just means I like,

I just wanna stab someone.

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And I know that's probably not the nice

kind way that you live your life, but

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Meagan McGovern: No.

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Well, the other thing is you

can't say them on Facebook or they

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Nora Gibbs: block you.

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You can't, oh my gosh.

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You know how many times I've gotten

kicked off Facebook for saying I wanna

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stab someone or I wanna strangle someone?

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You know, I think it's funny we're

talking about this 'cause today we'll

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go into mom and why she did things and

the way herself learn about things.

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Maybe this is why we do these things.

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Okay, well that's

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Meagan McGovern: the first

time I've ever thought of that.

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Mom used to say stuff

like that all the time.

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Nora Gibbs: Oh, all the time.

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But

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Meagan McGovern: she

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Nora Gibbs: used to,

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Meagan McGovern: so yeah, she used

to be really violent in her language,

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but she didn't hit us, so who knows.

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Nora Gibbs: No, she never did.

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She never did.

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Yeah.

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Again, so, alright, so we

ended last week's episode and

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I know we went over last week.

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So if you listened to the very

end, um, I will Venmo you $5 just,

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and we'll go from there.

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But we ended.

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As we moved into a house in the

San Fernando Valley, right next to

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the Sherman Oaks Galleria, which

is the Galleria from Valley Girl,

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Meagan McGovern: as if

anybody knows what that is

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Nora Gibbs: anymore.

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Okay, well, back in the

eighties, you know, everyone

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knows what a valley girl is.

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We were the heart of the valley.

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We were, we were valley girls.

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We were, you know, mid eighties.

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I was, it was what, 19 85, 86.

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At this point it was 85.

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85.

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I was 10 years old.

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Oh, no, Megan was 30.

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It was the spring.

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It

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Meagan McGovern: was the spring of 86.

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So I was a senior in high school for,

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Nora Gibbs: oh, it was spring

of 86 because yeah, the

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Challenger blew up in January.

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So spring of 86, this whole thing.

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So I was

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Meagan McGovern: 1986,

which is like peak eighties.

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I was 11.

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Yes, we were in all the cool

music and you know, yes.

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My whole, you know.

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High school experience was shaped

by:

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and all the music of that era.

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So

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Nora Gibbs: you were still

going, were you still in the

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Meagan McGovern: magnet

program at the school?

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I was still in the magnet program

and I graduated in May of:

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And then in the fall, or in

June actually, we graduated.

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'cause Susie and I still went together.

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Susie was still living with us.

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She had lived with us in Oregon

and she came back and lived with

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us in this house because her

parents wouldn't take her back.

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And when she didn't wanna go back.

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And we graduated on her 17th birthday.

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And, um, we both mom had, there's a lot.

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Okay, so from here on in is where I

feel like I get screwed over a bit.

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And obviously you get

screwed over a lot in this.

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It's not a trauma Olympics, but.

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I was smart.

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I wanted to go to college.

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I was really into going to college.

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I wanted to be an underwater archeologist.

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I was very into going to college.

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But because we had lived in

Oregon, I never took the SAT and

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I didn't understand how, oh, and

I had never applied to colleges.

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Um, I didn't know how and the month

that, so remember that Christmas

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we were talking about in Oregon

where everything was so chaotic?

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Yes.

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That was the deadline for college

applications was that week.

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That was that?

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Correct.

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So did

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Nora Gibbs: mom at any point ever talk

to you about college applications?

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Did she ever say, Hey?

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Yeah, she,

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Meagan McGovern: she said, I'm

gonna be very disappointed in

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you if you don't go to Harvard.

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I'm gonna be very disappointed

in you, and I'm very disappointed

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that you don't have straight A's

and you're not going to Harvard.

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Nora Gibbs: I'm also disappointed

in you that you didn't go to Harvard

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Meagan McGovern: and why?

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Why didn't you go to a good college and

what was wrong with you that you didn't

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figure this out and go to a good college?

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And I didn't know that all

college applications were

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due January 1st of that year.

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Nora Gibbs: Well, so here's the thing.

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Mom went to college in San

Francisco from New York City.

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How did she make that happen?

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Meagan McGovern: She went

to Hunter College first and

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she went to Wagner College.

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And she failed outta both of those.

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And this is a long story 'cause I think

other things happened while she was there.

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Um, I think she had a baby

while she was in college.

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Is May, maybe that was later.

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She had two babies in her twenties and

I'm not sure when, um, but I'm just

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Nora Gibbs: curious, how did she,

like, who helped her apply for that?

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How did she know that was an option?

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Because like her parents, like, I loved

grandpa and grandma obviously, but

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grandma was like, Polish didn't really

speak a lot, I don't think she was.

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Meagan McGovern: Her senior year of high

school, she, maybe she was a junior in

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high school and Aunt Maggie knows all the

details 'cause she's still mad about it.

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But either her junior or senior year

of high school, mom had a baby and

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she had it at a home for nuns and

she had to go away for six months.

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Right.

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And so that really screwed up

her whole high school curriculum

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and education as you would think.

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But she did go to an all girls

Catholic high school with nuns and.

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She got a great education and

she had decent grades and I think

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they helped her go to a college,

but she wasn't in any shape

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psychologically to do well in college.

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And I know she, I can't remember

whether she went to Hunter or Wagner.

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They're both in New York City and

she said she would take the ferry

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in and go to school, but I think

she found, you know, alcohol and

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men and life and didn't do well.

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And I don't know how long

she lasted, either one.

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And then she did go to college in

San Francisco, but my guess is that

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it was first semester for a year.

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It was not for very long, and she

never graduated from anywhere.

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And I.

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She just gave up and

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Nora Gibbs: obviously, I mean the

college application, you know,

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process had changed dramatically

from the mid fifties to the mid 80.

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Right, right.

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I was just curious as to how

she was able to get it together.

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I think

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Meagan McGovern: that the nuns, just

your senior year, they sat you down and

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said this, where, what do you wanna go?

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And they helped you fill

out the application.

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Was it?

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Gotcha.

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And so for me, I just didn't

even understand that that was

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something I was supposed to do.

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Right.

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And by the time I got back to LA and

got settled back into school, it was

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too late to apply anywhere except

our local community college And.

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To be fair, the two guys that Susie

and I were dating and who were

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our best friends, we were kind

of a foursome from that point on.

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They also went to the community college

and I don't know why they didn't

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end up going somewhere different.

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They were both, I mean, we were at

a magnet school for highly gifted,

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motivated kids with parents who

were involved, and I don't know why

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they didn't end up going to better.

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Josh's

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Nora Gibbs: family had money.

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I remember Josh having, yeah, I

don't know about Chris's family.

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Josh's family was wealthy, I

don't remember, and his and

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Meagan McGovern: his father was a

lawyer, and so I don't know why.

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He ended up at the community college

to start with, but I ended up at a

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community college where if you went

there for two years and got a decent

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GPA, you could transfer to UCLA.

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Gotcha.

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And so I was very excited about

that and, um, I believed that

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that was what I was going to do.

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And I was gonna go to UCLA

and go for archeology.

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Nora Gibbs: Okay.

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Sorry.

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It's just been on my mind.

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I was wondering like, how did mom end

up going to the college and get into all

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of these colleges and she never had the

wherewithal to help you apply for them?

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Meagan McGovern: Well, I don't, I

think she, for all of her issues, I

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don't know whether she had a DHD or

learning disabilities or anything else,

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or whether she's just mentally ill.

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I can't see mom sitting down

and going through and writing

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a paper and doing the work.

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Yeah, I, I mean, I didn't either.

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I went to, it took me years to go

through college and I didn't know why

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I couldn't sit down and do the work.

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I was interested, I loved to talk to

the teachers, I loved the topics and

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I loved the projects, but when it came

to sitting down and writing a paper,

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I couldn't get my ass in a chair.

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Nora Gibbs: Gotcha.

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Alright.

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So you were in high school still

and then moving into college

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and graduated from this house.

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And this is the house we

were living in when mom had.

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Of a couple of our friends living with us.

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Katie's friends and your friends.

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So at this point it was Katie and

Tyra, and Tyra was Katie's best friend

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and we talked about her a little

bit in the last couple episodes.

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Tyra had a big impact in our

life in that, or in my life.

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Anyway, that Tyra's mom, and I'm probably

gonna get some of the details right,

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but I'm just gonna throw it out there.

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Tyra's mother started having an

affair with Tyra's sister's boyfriend.

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And Tyra's sister was just

two years older than Tyra.

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So Tyra's mom was, let's

say 35, 40 years old.

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She started having an affair

with like a 17-year-old kid,

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and this boy was very abusive to

Tyra and like physically abusive.

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Kind of took a role as the man of the

house and like started bossing around

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his ex-girlfriend who was Tyra's sister.

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She ended up moving out, Tyra

ended up moving in with us and,

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and Susie already lived with us.

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Susie already lived with us, and there

was an article that a man named Ben Stein

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wrote for the Harold Tribune and Ben

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Meagan McGovern: Stein.

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There was no Harold Tribune.

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That's New York City.

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It was the la I don't

know it have the article.

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It was the LA Her Have

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Nora Gibbs: article or

the, sorry, I think it was

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Meagan McGovern: the

La Herald or something.

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The Herald Examiner.

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The Herald Examiner.

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Herald Examiner.

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Okay,

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Nora Gibbs: so Ben Stein was writer for

the Harald Examiner and Ben Stein will

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be most famously known to most of you

listening to this as the man in Ferris

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Bueller's Day Off who said Bueller?

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Bueller.

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Bueller and Ferris Bueller and, and

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Meagan McGovern: he went famous

later for other stuff he did.

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He was a political advisor.

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He did a, he did a stupid

show called Ben Stein's Money

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Nora Gibbs: when Ben Stein's Money.

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And the host of that show, or his

co-host on that show, or the host

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of that show was Jimmy Kimmel.

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And that's how Jimmy Kimmel

ended up becoming a late

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night talk show host, right?

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Since he got famous through Ben Stein.

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So Ben Stein wrote an article

about the throwaway children

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of the San Fernando Valley.

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Right.

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And it was basically about kids

who were homeless or kids who were

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living with other people, or kids who

have just been kind of thrown away.

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But they all still had dreams.

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They had big dreams and they

wanted to do this and that.

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So Mom read that article and she

wrote Ben Stein a letter and said, I

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actually, these kids, I have a house

full of kids who've been abused,

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who've been hurt, who've been whatever.

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And that led to a phone

call with her and Ben Stein.

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And Ben Stein wrote an article

about our family, and Megan's gonna

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post this article on her socials

for everyone to look at and on

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the Forever Wild Podcast page.

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But so Ben Stein wrote an article

about The Valley's Keeper.

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The title of it is The Valley's

Keeper of Disposable Children,

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and it was written in 1986.

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And it was a big article and

we started getting letters in

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the mail through the newspaper.

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I guess they went to Ben Stein

and they were redirected to us.

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There were checks in the mail.

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Do you remember that?

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People would send us money.

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Meagan McGovern: Yeah.

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Okay.

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So, and well, here's the things he like.

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What he says in here is,

um, Maureen McGovern is a

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divorced woman in middle age.

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She lives in a ramshackle house bursting

with love and caring and children.

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Some of the children are

hers and some are children.

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She took in.

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And he actually calls her a

genuine hero of modern life.

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Nora Gibbs: Oh, that's so kind.

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Meagan McGovern: And then he says,

um, my smart friend once told me that

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he could tell in one instant whether

someone was for life or for death.

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Maureen McGovern is for life since

she is also something of a poet.

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You might wanna hear her own words

about the way she lives and why.

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And she goes on and talks about

how, you know, she's helping

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these kids and I anyway, about

basically how she's the savior.

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Of all of these children and

about what wonderful things she's

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doing for these kids and, and

how she's saving all of them.

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Nora Gibbs: And to some

degree, she was right.

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She gave them a safe place to live.

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She gave them food, she gave them hugs.

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She was good to them.

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They had a safe place to

lay their head at night.

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And I think for a lot of teenagers

in peril, that's what they need.

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Right.

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Meagan McGovern: Well, and I think

this is an interesting key is 'cause

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my mother, we haven't gotten into men.

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Sex, my mother, all of that yet.

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, but one of the things she says

here is it's very typical of her.

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The problem starts with

the father leaving.

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The mother panics and thinks she

can't live without a new man.

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She starts running to health clubs.

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And beauty safaris and single

bars, beauty salons, not safaris.

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I don't even know what, it's

a good, some beauty safari.

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I, I wanna go into bar's, not clear

beauty salon and singles bars and

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single clubs and group therapy and

the children are just left behind.

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And you know something, those

people are making big mistakes.

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The children I take in are

wonderful, beautiful kids.

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And what I get out of them in the way

of love and affection is something

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you can't buy at a health club.

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You can't buy that anywhere.

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I'm the lucky one.

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And I mean, come on.

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Okay.

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First she's blaming you.

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Okay.

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And women for wanting

to, I don't even know.

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Nora Gibbs: Well, we know she's

dramatic and we know she's a writer,

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so that's kind of where that came from.

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I think.

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So the reason that I wanted to talk

about this in this episode today is

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'cause I think it's really interesting,

and you and I have talked about this

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before a little bit, that you know.

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Did, why did Mom take in kids?

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Did mom do it to make herself

feel better as a mother?

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Like, Hey, at least I'm not as bad as

Tyra's mom who started sleeping with

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her boyfriend, her sister's boyfriend,

or, Hey, at least I'm not as bad

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as Susie's mom who, X, Y, Z, right?

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I think it's, I think it was

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Meagan McGovern: a combination of

she had no boundaries, and if we

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brought home a sick, sad kid or

whatever, she would say, sure, why not?

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She wanted us to love her more, and

she loved having other kids love

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her because it made her feel good.

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It made her feel good about herself

and a bad part of me wants to believe

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that it made it easier to scam people.

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Nora Gibbs: Yeah, for sure.

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I mean, if you pride yourself on being

a saint and ticking all these kids,

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it's hard for people to see you coming.

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Yeah.

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When they steal their wall at other house.

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Meagan McGovern: Well, and some of these

kids, I mean, to be fair, there were some

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cdy fights that I don't like to think

about, about who was getting the social

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security checks for some of these kids.

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Nora Gibbs: I rem, you know, I mean, and

I know, and I know Tyra's father passed

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away when she was younger, and Tyra got

$500 a month in her social security.

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Right.

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And I know for a fact

that mom got that check.

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Meagan McGovern: Right.

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And was that a factor?

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I mean, I don't think that's

the reason she took Tyra.

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She never got money for Susie.

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But I think it was also not, not a factor.

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Like sure, an extra 500

bucks a month is gonna help.

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Nora Gibbs: Can you imagine if she

had known that the government would

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pay her to be a, like a foster mom?

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Oh my God.

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But she would've had to

have home inspection.

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Oh, she would've passed.

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We would've passed.

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Yeah.

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Passed.

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We would've been like all screaming

at the bottom and she would've hired

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a housekeeper to come clean it up.

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Yeah.

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Meagan McGovern: Okay, so let's get to

the other part of the Ben Stein story.

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Nora Gibbs: Okay, so this is the part

that's frustrating for me to talk about

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because again, me being savvy, so.

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Ben Stein met our family.

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He came to visit our family and

immediately had a very strong

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reaction to, for lack of a better

phrase to our sister Morgan.

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Morgan was a beautiful girl.

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She was 13 at this point.

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Um, and Ben decided that he

wanted to take pictures of Morgan.

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He said that he wanted to show

his nephew what California girls

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looked like, and I remember this.

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This is hand on a Bible.

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This all happened.

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He and Morgan, Morgan and I and

my mother went to his house and it

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was like in the Hollywood Hills.

384

:

It was up on a hill somewhere.

385

:

It was a beautiful house out by the pool.

386

:

And Morgan put on a blue bikini

and went out and po by the pool.

387

:

And Ben Stein personally took

pictures of her by the pool.

388

:

Posing in a bikini 13 years old.

389

:

Meagan McGovern: And to be fair,

she was pretty enough at that time.

390

:

And we were poor enough at the time

and we'd lived in LA that everybody

391

:

talked about Morgan being a model

or an actress, and that this was

392

:

going to maybe be some pictures

for modeling or for whatever else.

393

:

It wasn't that skeevy.

394

:

I mean, it was, but it wasn't, it wa

and mom was there to make sure that, you

395

:

know, I don't know if mom was there in the

396

:

Nora Gibbs: moment.

397

:

It wasn't creepy.

398

:

Me being there looking back now on

it, it, it was super fucking creepy.

399

:

Right.

400

:

But in the moment, no, it wasn't

in the moment I was 11 years old, I

401

:

was really mad that he didn't want

pictures of me being in my bikini.

402

:

Like I wasn't cute enough.

403

:

Right?

404

:

Like, what are you talking about?

405

:

She's prettier than I am.

406

:

And that's just a sister

rivalry thing, right?

407

:

But looking back on it now,

it was super inappropriate.

408

:

So he took these pictures of her,

I think his wife was even there.

409

:

She was in the house somewhere.

410

:

Yeah.

411

:

So there was

412

:

Meagan McGovern: nothing gross.

413

:

Nothing terrible about it.

414

:

Right.

415

:

Nora Gibbs: Right.

416

:

Um, but again, looking back on

it now, super inappropriate.

417

:

I mean,

418

:

Meagan McGovern: yes, gross,

but not criminal, right?

419

:

Nora Gibbs: Not, you know.

420

:

Right.

421

:

Um, he didn't touch her.

422

:

He never made a pass at her.

423

:

He never did anything like that.

424

:

He took some pictures

of her out by the pool.

425

:

We left.

426

:

Everything was copacetic,

everything's great.

427

:

Right.

428

:

Um, as far as I know at, in Los Angeles

at that point, that was the last

429

:

interaction we had with Ben Stein.

430

:

So.

431

:

Shortly after this.

432

:

Okay.

433

:

Right before

434

:

Meagan McGovern: we end

up moving in December.

435

:

And so in the fall, Susie and I

started at the community college.

436

:

And like I said, I, I really wanted to

transfer to UCLA in two years and I was

437

:

happy for the first time in a long time.

438

:

We felt stable, sort of,

and I was really happy.

439

:

I mean, mom had gotten arrested at

some point for bad checks, I think.

440

:

And it was bad 'cause

like my father showed up.

441

:

And had to help bail her out.

442

:

But for whatever reason or however it

worked, there was enough money coming in

443

:

that we felt sort of stable and I really

liked going to the community college.

444

:

But at some point, about 10 days

before Christmas, mom came in and

445

:

said, we're moving to New York.

446

:

Pack her shit, and we're

moving to New York in two days.

447

:

We're moving to Connecticut in two days.

448

:

Nora Gibbs: Well, I will say right before

this happened, I do remember there was

449

:

a lot of car shuffling in the driveway.

450

:

Because we had a couple of cars at

this point, and she was afraid that

451

:

somebody was gonna repossess her car.

452

:

So like she would park her car as

close to her car as she could and

453

:

then have other people park her

car, their cars behind hers so that

454

:

they couldn't get in to tow her car.

455

:

Meagan McGovern: Yeah.

456

:

I mean, and so the money wasn't there and,

but I, and, and once dad gets involved,

457

:

you know, it's kind of a, a mess if Dad's

getting involved and I don't know what

458

:

she thought was going to be in New York.

459

:

We'd already moved to New York once we

had already moved to the Adirondack.

460

:

In 1980, we had already done that

where she burned down the house.

461

:

So why were we going back to New York?

462

:

I don't know.

463

:

I don't remember why we ended up

there, but California wasn't working,

464

:

so we were going back to, to New York

and I, for the first time, kind of

465

:

threw a fit and I said, I'm not going.

466

:

I, one of the other things was, is that

in, at this particular community college,

467

:

final exams were in January and I had five

classes that I was enrolled in and I was

468

:

doing well in them, and she said, too bad.

469

:

I don't care.

470

:

You have to come.

471

:

And I said, no, I'm not going.

472

:

And she said, you're, you just turned 17.

473

:

What are you gonna do?

474

:

Stay here by yourself.

475

:

And maybe if I had been a different

person or you know, I might have said,

476

:

sure, yes I am, but I could never

have left you guys behind or Right.

477

:

And I would never thought

I could survive on my own.

478

:

And I felt like I was

still your big sister.

479

:

I couldn't do that to you.

480

:

You

481

:

Nora Gibbs: were

482

:

Meagan McGovern: still

483

:

Nora Gibbs: our big sister.

484

:

Meagan McGovern: Well, yeah.

485

:

And I mean, we, I don't

remember how we got there.

486

:

Don't remember moving there.

487

:

Don't remember the trip

Cross country, but.

488

:

Nora Gibbs: I remember

bits and pieces of it.

489

:

Did we go in a moving van?

490

:

Meagan McGovern: I don't know.

491

:

I, I remember

492

:

Nora Gibbs: we had Toby with us, our dog.

493

:

Meagan McGovern: Yeah.

494

:

And I mean, Susie went with us.

495

:

I know we didn't fly, don't remember

the trip, but we ended up in Connecticut

496

:

two days before Christmas, and we went

to stay with my aunt and uncle, and I

497

:

had to give up that entire semester and

take withdrawals in every single class.

498

:

Nora Gibbs: We didn't just end

up in Connecticut, we ended up in

499

:

Darien, Connecticut, which is one

of the richest parts of Connecticut.

500

:

Meagan McGovern: It's one of the

richest parts of the entire country.

501

:

I mean, you're talking Beverly Hills,

Darien, Connecticut, and whatever,

502

:

el whatever part of San Francisco,

um, and Silicon Valley type of thing.

503

:

And it's just, it was a disaster.

504

:

All four of us and our dog, again, this

is the second time that all four and Katie

505

:

Nora Gibbs: has sugar, also two dogs.

506

:

Meagan McGovern: Yeah, actually,

and it wasn't four of us.

507

:

It was five of us.

508

:

'cause Suzy came with us.

509

:

So five children, plus my mom,

plus our dog for the second time.

510

:

Show up on my aunt and uncle's doorstep

in Connecticut, where they did Tyra

511

:

Nora Gibbs: watch

512

:

Meagan McGovern: this?

513

:

Not she came later.

514

:

She flew out later.

515

:

Okay.

516

:

Okay.

517

:

Um, but we showed up two days

before Christmas at my aunt and

518

:

uncle's house in Connecticut.

519

:

And my aunt and uncle are good

people and they are decent

520

:

human beings, but nobody wants.

521

:

Six homeless people showing

up on their doorstep.

522

:

Or five Yes.

523

:

Fi six homeless people showing

up on their doorstep two days

524

:

before Christmas with their dog.

525

:

Plus two dogs.

526

:

Yeah, two dogs.

527

:

Yeah.

528

:

And it was just, it was just a disaster.

529

:

And, uh, I mean, so here we

are again, six years later.

530

:

Only this time we're smarter,

wiser, and we understand that our

531

:

aunt and uncle don't want us there,

or you know, they don't want us

532

:

to be in this circumstance there.

533

:

And it was just awful.

534

:

Um.

535

:

And I mean, you tell us about Christmas.

536

:

Christmas sucked.

537

:

Nora Gibbs: Well, this was a big

Christmas because on Christmas Eve,

538

:

I remember this, um, we were staying

with my cousin Bernie was there

539

:

and Bernie's like a couple years.

540

:

He was like a year older than Morgan.

541

:

So a couple years older than

I is he, everybody went out to

542

:

midnight mass on Christmas Eve,

like all the adults and big kids.

543

:

And Morgan and I and Bernie

and his friend tof, Christopher

544

:

tof, we all stayed behind.

545

:

And they got drunk on Molson Golden.

546

:

Wow.

547

:

Because they were like 15 or 16

and TOF threw up everywhere and

548

:

it was like horrific vomiting.

549

:

Right.

550

:

And right as soon as he was done

throwing up, uncle Bernie walks in

551

:

and he was, and it's like Christmas

Eve vomit all over the playroom.

552

:

And he is like, what is happening?

553

:

And I think for a minute there, he thought

it was like me and Morgan, I'm like.

554

:

Dude, I'm like 11 years old.

555

:

This has nothing to do with me.

556

:

You know?

557

:

And so it was, it was burning

in tof, but it was, it was

558

:

kind of a interesting thing.

559

:

But I remember, I remember a lot of

presents for some reason, which is so

560

:

bizarre to me, that we had all these gifts

and like an embarrassing amount of gifts.

561

:

One mom didn't have any money,

562

:

Meagan McGovern: right?

563

:

And either she borrowed the money from

them and then bought the PS, or she

564

:

stole the money and they knew that.

565

:

And we didn't know that.

566

:

I mean, not really.

567

:

We didn't understand how it all worked.

568

:

But we do know there

was like resentment and.

569

:

My big thing with this was,

um, hold on one second.

570

:

My big thing with this was, remember

how I just said that, you know,

571

:

the year before I'd had to apply

to all these colleges, right?

572

:

My cousin is three months younger than

I am, and she was a year behind me in

573

:

school, and she was applying to colleges

and all of her college applications

574

:

would do the first week in January.

575

:

So on her desk in her beautiful

organized bedroom where she had

576

:

always lived and always had beautiful

furniture and beautiful things, were

577

:

12 different college applications lined

up with letters of recommendation for

578

:

professors and copies of her grades.

579

:

And she was writing in her own

handwriting or maybe even on a typewriter.

580

:

I don't remember what

you used in those days.

581

:

Nora Gibbs: I feel like

it was a typewriter.

582

:

I remember her typing, yeah.

583

:

Meagan McGovern: In her college essays

and filling out the applications,

584

:

essays and why she wanted that.

585

:

And I was.

586

:

Almost knocked over by jealousy and envy

and anger and resentment at my mother.

587

:

And they were already talking about

how they were gonna move her into the

588

:

dorms and where they were going to go

and which college she wanted to go to.

589

:

And I was so furious and I, I

mean, I can still feel that.

590

:

Viscerally.

591

:

And I know it wasn't her fault.

592

:

She's going to college, she's

doing what she's supposed to do.

593

:

I remember

594

:

Nora Gibbs: she had a little,

I remember she had Aunt

595

:

Sonia's checkbook next to her.

596

:

Meagan McGovern: Yes.

597

:

'cause she had to write

a check and she had a

598

:

Nora Gibbs: checkbook because

she was just writing a check

599

:

for the college applications.

600

:

And I can just remember thinking like, I

can't imagine having my own, like having

601

:

access to a checkbook that there was money

in the account and you can just write

602

:

a check for something that you needed.

603

:

Meagan McGovern: Yeah.

604

:

I mean it was, and this

was just an exposure to.

605

:

I mean, its more a normal life.

606

:

It's a pretty privileged life, and

especially in, you know, in:

607

:

everybody got to go to college and

fill out college applications, but

608

:

in our family, a lot of people did.

609

:

And the people that I

went to school with did.

610

:

And yet here I was and I was very upset

by the expectation that I was supposed

611

:

to do something with my life and the

reality that I didn't have the support.

612

:

And the skills needed to do it.

613

:

Nora Gibbs: Yeah.

614

:

Well, and it's frustrating when you,

it's kind of that what my life could be.

615

:

Yes.

616

:

Like if, okay, and I always used to think

this, if Uncle Bernie had been my dad,

617

:

what would my life have looked like?

618

:

I.

619

:

So much different than it is now.

620

:

Right, right.

621

:

Um, which is funny because his son and

I actually do the same thing, so it's

622

:

kind of all worked out like Right.

623

:

You know, I mean, we have the

same, we have the same career path.

624

:

Well, I mean,

625

:

Meagan McGovern: and, and my

cousin ended up, she became, um,

626

:

she grad, she majored in history,

which I would've loved to major in.

627

:

She went to a decent

college and she liked it.

628

:

And then, okay.

629

:

And she also started

630

:

Nora Gibbs: rowing her

631

:

Meagan McGovern: first year of college.

632

:

I think she started rowing

her first year in college.

633

:

And she, but the, the whole

family did all of the Connecticut

634

:

things that we never did.

635

:

Like they played things like

lacrosse and they played badminton

636

:

on their front lawn and they

chased fireflies in the afternoon.

637

:

And all the things that I.

638

:

And they played tennis for fun

and they took piano lessons.

639

:

And um,

640

:

Nora Gibbs: I played tennis for

fun and Charlotte plays lacrosse,

641

:

so, okay, well there you go.

642

:

But, but also I'll, I do have to

give a quick shout out to Christine.

643

:

Christina ended up, you know, she

started rowing when she was in

644

:

college and she ended up going

into the Olympics for the US team,

645

:

and she won a bronze silver medal.

646

:

Bronze, bronze, oh.

647

:

She won the bronze medal

for US and Australia

648

:

Meagan McGovern: in the 2000 Olympics.

649

:

And I was pregnant with

Sawyer, so I couldn't go.

650

:

Anyway, so

651

:

Nora Gibbs: sorry I digressed.

652

:

Yeah, she ended up, she

653

:

Meagan McGovern: ended up being

a fantastic human being who

654

:

was actually, she's wonderful.

655

:

Very sweet and good natured and she

gives back and, you know, does a

656

:

lot of of cool things and I didn't

know that Then all I knew was that

657

:

I just resented everything about her

life because I couldn't have that.

658

:

Nora Gibbs: Yeah.

659

:

Yeah.

660

:

So, and I remember she was, um,

I don't know when it was, but she

661

:

was going shopping with her mother.

662

:

For clothes for college.

663

:

Yep.

664

:

And or for back to school or something.

665

:

And she had mentioned that

she gets a budget for that.

666

:

Yes.

667

:

And I remember thinking, what's a budget?

668

:

Meagan McGovern: I remember, I

remember a lot of the parenting things

669

:

that her parents did, and I just

thought it was like being angry if

670

:

they didn't make it home by curfew.

671

:

I was at a party with Christine one night

and it was seven minutes till midnight.

672

:

And of course, you know, Katie

and I are begging to stay

673

:

and we don't want to go home.

674

:

And Christine calls her house at seven

minutes to midnight and says, can I?

675

:

Extend the curfew and

her parents are furious.

676

:

They're like, we live 15 minutes away.

677

:

Yeah.

678

:

So if you called it 20 minutes till and

said, can you expend, expend the curfew?

679

:

Sure.

680

:

But we live 15 minutes away.

681

:

You're calling seven minutes

before to ask if you can extend.

682

:

And I'm thinking, boy, they're so mean.

683

:

And boy, they're so, they're so picky.

684

:

And how dare they?

685

:

And then yeah, they would say something

like, you have $200 to shop for school

686

:

clothes and, um, you need to take care

of all your own expenses with that money.

687

:

And you can figure out if you

wanna buy one nice jacket or.

688

:

10 smaller things and I'm

thinking, wow, that's, no, I can

689

:

never imagine anything like that.

690

:

Nora Gibbs: Well, and it's funny 'cause

I've actually done kind of the same

691

:

thing with my own kids, just because

of that one little thing that stuck

692

:

with me when I was a little girl.

693

:

Yeah.

694

:

So, um, okay, so where'd we go from here?

695

:

Christmas was miserable.

696

:

So now

697

:

Meagan McGovern: let's talk

about, we moved to a house

698

:

and we moved into a house.

699

:

Of course we went to, you

know, a nice quiet, you know,

700

:

suburb that we could afford.

701

:

Um,

702

:

all right, where'd we go?

703

:

Nora Gibbs: We moved to, but

I'm from Westport, Connecticut.

704

:

Yeah.

705

:

Which is two streets over from Martha.

706

:

Martha

707

:

Meagan McGovern: Spirit.

708

:

Martha, yes.

709

:

We lived a couple of blocks from Martha

710

:

Nora Gibbs: and from her church.

711

:

We lived on um, greens Farms Road

and it was an incredible lot.

712

:

Just down the street you could walk

down and you could see old Long Island

713

:

sound and, ugh, a beautiful home.

714

:

Lots of bedrooms, big, huge yard.

715

:

Meagan McGovern: We rented it.

716

:

I don't know why they have rentals there,

but I don't know how much the rental was.

717

:

I don't know where we got the money.

718

:

I don't know how we ended up doing it.

719

:

We didn't live there for very long,

but we moved in there and, um, we

720

:

Nora Gibbs: moved in there.

721

:

We were there long enough that we

went to, I went to school there.

722

:

I went to Westport, um,

middle school or whatever.

723

:

The middle school was there.

724

:

And you know, I had a

lot of friends there.

725

:

And this is where I kind of

started my sports career.

726

:

This is where I started playing soccer

and where I started playing softball.

727

:

Meagan McGovern: Um, I started, I got into

728

:

Nora Gibbs: sports.

729

:

Meagan McGovern: I started at a

college, um, sacred Heart University.

730

:

And remember it, it was just a commuter

college, but I was able to take classes

731

:

again and I was glad to be back in school.

732

:

'cause that was my thing, is that

I couldn't just not do anything.

733

:

I graduated from high school.

734

:

Now what?

735

:

I, and I started waiting tables, but, um.

736

:

I started having some great friends there

too, and we started having a life again.

737

:

But we also knew it wasn't gonna

last because it never lasted.

738

:

Yeah.

739

:

And we didn't know what to do.

740

:

And we didn't know how far to dive in.

741

:

Alright.

742

:

And so this is where the second part

of the Ben Stein story comes in.

743

:

So one of the cool things about

living in Connecticut, which anybody

744

:

who lives on the East coast knows,

is that if you live in Connecticut.

745

:

Everybody you know will come visit you

because at some point, everybody, you

746

:

know, anywhere in the world will fly

through New York City and they will

747

:

say, Hey, I'm flying in through New

York and I need a place to stay and

748

:

the city's really expensive, and can

I be put up for a couple nights and

749

:

it's only an hour train to New York and

everybody comes in, which was, I hadn't

750

:

really understood how New York is the

hub of everywhere, but it really does.

751

:

Nora Gibbs: Yeah.

752

:

Meagan McGovern: And

753

:

Nora Gibbs: so we were

living in Connecticut.

754

:

Yeah.

755

:

And mom gets a phone call from Ben Stein.

756

:

And I don't know how he

got her phone number.

757

:

I don't know if she, how, why

she was so in contact with him.

758

:

Um, but Ben Stein called and

asked and said to my mom, Hey,

759

:

I'm in New York for the weekend

and I would love to see Morgan.

760

:

Is it possible that you

can bring Morgan to me?

761

:

And I would love to take her shopping

and she can maybe stay here with me

762

:

for the weekend and I'd love to just

kind of hang out with her and show

763

:

her the city, take her to her show,

and take her shopping for the weekend.

764

:

She's more than welcome to

stay with me in my hotel.

765

:

Meagan McGovern: And I don't know how

it was proposed, whether it was a,

766

:

Nora Gibbs: and this

is a story I heard from

767

:

Meagan McGovern: mom, right?

768

:

Well, whether it was a story of She's

such a cool girl and I'd like to help

769

:

her out and I know you guys don't have

any money, and I'd like to create scholar

770

:

scholarships or else I'd like to help

her with modeling, or I, I don't know in

771

:

any scene world where you could come up

with a cover story for that, that would.

772

:

Sound

773

:

Nora Gibbs: rational to mom's credit.

774

:

Mom said, absolutely not.

775

:

That is never gonna happen.

776

:

And hung up the phone.

777

:

Meagan McGovern: What was, but I mean,

how could anybody have a cover story

778

:

that sounds even remotely normal?

779

:

I mean, I don't know what I mean,

it was obviously what he, it was

780

:

obvious what he was proposing.

781

:

Nora Gibbs: For sure.

782

:

And I don't, and I don't know, did he

see a desperate woman thinking he was,

783

:

she was going to pimp her daughter out.

784

:

Did he see an opportunity to take

advantage of Morgan when Morgan was in

785

:

a role PO position, offer her things?

786

:

You know, I mean, at this point, she's 14.

787

:

It was after December, so

she's 14 at this point.

788

:

Yeah.

789

:

Doesn't make it any better.

790

:

She's a child.

791

:

Right, right.

792

:

No.

793

:

And disgust.

794

:

The whole thing is just, it's so

uncomfortable to talk about that.

795

:

I didn't honestly wrap my head around

the whole thing and think about the

796

:

whole thing until about a year ago when

I really started thinking about it.

797

:

When I had a teenage, a couple

of teenagers just thinking, what

798

:

the fuck is wrong with this guy?

799

:

Meagan McGovern: Well, I was, um, a

reporter for a while in different venues

800

:

and one of the things when I was at, um.

801

:

Years later, I was in Houston and

I was a reporter for the Republican

802

:

and I was covering the Republican

National Convention, um, whatever year

803

:

that was, 94, 96, whenever it was.

804

:

And one of the people there,

one of the reporters, there was

805

:

a reporter for Spy Magazine.

806

:

I don't know by magazine, doesn't

exist anymore, but it was a

807

:

really cool magazine that I loved.

808

:

And they had an article on Ben

Stein or Little, they had little.

809

:

Snarky snippets in some of their

places, and I think Ben Stein was

810

:

probably a Republican reporter or

Republican commentator or whatever.

811

:

Nora Gibbs: He was a political

advisor, if I remember correctly.

812

:

Meagan McGovern: Yeah, I think he

was like an analyst or something.

813

:

He was always involved in politics

and Spy magazine had a snarky thing

814

:

come out that said everybody knows

that Ben Stein likes him young.

815

:

Oof, something like that.

816

:

There was, and I can't find the

clip anywhere, in any newspaper

817

:

articles or anywhere else.

818

:

'cause Spy Magazine doesn't exist

anymore and the archives aren't online.

819

:

But I know that it said something

about, it's a well known fact.

820

:

Stein likes some young and

cute or something like that.

821

:

And so, wow.

822

:

Now every time the conspiracy theory

about pedophiles and Hollywood and

823

:

the coverup comes up, I'm like, well.

824

:

You know, maybe they were onto something.

825

:

I don't think they're drinking

children's blood, but I do think

826

:

they were onto something with hiding.

827

:

Yeah.

828

:

The bad guys in in,

829

:

Nora Gibbs: there's some creepy

people out there for sure.

830

:

Meagan McGovern: Yeah.

831

:

And you So is he gonna sue us?

832

:

I don't care.

833

:

He can sue me.

834

:

Nora Gibbs: But I mean, you can't sue

people for saying things that happened.

835

:

That's true.

836

:

What's he gonna say?

837

:

It didn't happen.

838

:

We have a proof and he's gonna come

out and say he is never met our family.

839

:

Here's an article you

wrote about my family.

840

:

You've met our family.

841

:

Right.

842

:

How can I describe his house in his

backyard if I've never been to his house?

843

:

He

844

:

Meagan McGovern: never, he

never made that phone call.

845

:

Invited Morgan.

846

:

Okay.

847

:

I'll say I'm okay.

848

:

You know, fine.

849

:

If he sues me for a million

dollars, I'll take it back.

850

:

Nora Gibbs: I'm so sorry.

851

:

My mother told me that my mother, who

whatever is also, we were also a liar, is

852

:

Meagan McGovern: also a liar and a creep.

853

:

Nora Gibbs: I'm so sorry.

854

:

She's been dead for six years.

855

:

I apologize.

856

:

So, um, anyway, I'm not worried about him.

857

:

He's a creep and if he or his people

listen to this, you're a creep.

858

:

Meagan McGovern: But I do think it shows.

859

:

How vulnerable we were seen or

vulnerable we appeared to be.

860

:

Yeah.

861

:

And I think it shows, you know, I

don't think anybody would've done this

862

:

if there were a father in the house,

863

:

Nora Gibbs: you know?

864

:

Well, it's just not scary that, I

mean, like what other people are

865

:

being picked apart or, you know,

preyed upon like that, you know?

866

:

Yeah.

867

:

It's a scary thing.

868

:

Well, I think we have talked

about Ben Stein as much as I

869

:

wanna talk about that piece of.

870

:

You know what, um, and I think our

time in Connecticut is coming to a

871

:

close, or the first part of our time

in Connecticut is coming to a close.

872

:

So we can stay on time and

not bore all of our listeners.

873

:

Um,

874

:

Meagan McGovern: well, because

guess what, guess where we go?

875

:

Next time we go back to the

Adirondacks, it's like back,

876

:

we go back to the Adirondacks.

877

:

Nora Gibbs: It's like

878

:

Meagan McGovern: we were in the

Adirondacks and my mom burned the house

879

:

down and then, you know, here we are six

years later with a whole crew of kids, and

880

:

although by this time it's 87, so Yeah.

881

:

You know, or 88.

882

:

SE seven, eight years later, we're back

to the Adirondacks with the same crew and

883

:

Nora Gibbs: well, there's one more

house in Connecticut after this,

884

:

and then we move to the Adirondacks.

885

:

But we'll talk about that next week.

886

:

Yeah,

887

:

Meagan McGovern: but I mean, it

doesn't, it just seems like it all

888

:

cycles back and forth and back and

forth and doesn't really, I don't

889

:

know if we learned much from it.

890

:

Nora Gibbs: Well.

891

:

I don't know.

892

:

And it's the one thing that's

always so funny to me is people

893

:

are like, where are you from?

894

:

I'm like, well, I'm from the East

coast, but I'm also from the West coast.

895

:

And they're like, what

are you talking about?

896

:

And I'm like, I'm also from Texas.

897

:

Like, they're like, how are

you from all these places?

898

:

I'm like, lemme just give

you the name of my podcast.

899

:

That's what I'm gonna say's, my podcast.

900

:

Would you listen to it

and leave us a review?

901

:

That's really funny.

902

:

Yeah.

903

:

Meagan McGovern: All right.

904

:

So I think that's it for today.

905

:

Um, as always, thank you for

listening to Forever Wild.

906

:

Nora Gibbs: And as always, if you've

enjoyed the episode, let us know.

907

:

Please leave us a review.

908

:

We have coming to understand

that the reviews really

909

:

matter, so we appreciate that.

910

:

Find Megan on Facebook and you can find

the Ben Stein article that he wrote

911

:

about our family or follow the Forever

Wilds, um, Facebook page and share it

912

:

with somebody who loves a good story.

913

:

Meagan McGovern: So we do love to

hear from you and we also would

914

:

like to know what resonates and you

know, what your favorite parts are,

915

:

what you wanna hear more about.

916

:

Nora Gibbs: Until next time, stay wild.

917

:

I.

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About the Podcast

Forever Wild
Stories from the McGovern Girls
Forever Wild is a memoir podcast about four sisters, a con artist mother, and a childhood spent on the run. From mafia bars to game shows, mental hospitals to Australia, it’s a story of survival, chaos, and the search for home. Hosted by sisters Meagan McGovern and Nora Gibbs, this deeply personal series blends dark humor, nostalgia, and raw honesty in a journey you won’t forget.

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Meagan McGovern